The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[ArbeeNYC]

but the never seen, "All levels! Advanced dancers welcome if willing to invite beginners!"

Hate to break the news but there are beginners who will also reject (good) experienced dancers because they want to dance with their peers. If there are enough people for them to dance with, they don't need you. This breaks down mostly into age, background, peer group categories. This is probably a function of the local community, but it's real enough. Most of them aren't particularly in need of "advanced" dancers because they have a bunch of options.

 

[Rabbit]

So long as the beginners turn up to dance I don't particularly care whom they dance with, we can worry about that once the scene is in good health

 

[pianistamediano]

In lots of places, a milonga has cumbia, salsa, rock, etc. as well! I believe that in Argentina, the rule is it can make up 30% of the music before some cultural law or other dictates that the event is a "baile" and not a "milonga." But anyway, I'm not talking about milongas for "the rest of us," but events (call them "bailes" if you like) for easing total beginners into tango with a huge or even equal dose of music that they already know and feel comfortable with.

I know! So call them bailes then, not milongas. Problem is that, as you very well know, many tango dancers only dance tango, so they'd be sitting out. But this shouldn't be a problem if you have a sizeable population of dancers who dance more than just tango.

Again, my idea is for easing in total beginners, who are used to "1 dance = 1 song" from literally every other dance they're likely to know. Part of what frustrates newcomers is this obligation to dance 3-4 pieces with the same person whether it feels like it's working or not, whether they're out of patience or not. Rapid partner changes get more people dancing; they're by definition more inclusive. And if you object to creepy power imbalances, many changes also increase the chances that someone will invite a creepy person's pet beginner.

That's a fair argument. But honestly I'd rather have no cortinas than single-song tandas. Then again, creepy power imbalances will have less impact if the organiser mandates changing partners every song... So you have my provisional stamp of approval.

What do you have in mind to prevent the people who sit at the high table/s at your local milongas from exerting social pressure/making their own rules? They can run roughshod over so many things because of their perceived status.

(I still believe salsa is for eating, not for dancing! Hmph! )

 

[pianistamediano]

Right. Not for just one couple.

Please make it at least 30% — or however low the percentage of milonga dancers is! Why should the majority of dancers sit and stare and grumble while people dance salsa at a milonga and not at a congress? Depending on how imbalanced the roles are, you'll have plenty of disgruntled followers too who've been sitting for way too long, and they have to sit through the whole cortina too.

 

[itwillhappen]

I often feel that what's needed is an organizer with the backbone to host an event where it's made clear that advanced-who-dance-only-with-advanced may not want to bother to come. Post in big letters not the fairly common, "All levels. Beginner dancers welcome!", but the never seen, "All levels! Advanced dancers welcome if willing to invite beginners!"

I'm a little surprised because you once described how tight your schedule is if you just want to meet the expectations of your regular dancer partners.

 

[itwillhappen]

People want to grow tango, yet you are talking about purposefully being elitist and shunning people. If you don’t think they will talk to others about it you are wrong.

Recently a group of followers talked about how there were particular tangueros who were elitist and clearly judgmental. They were part of a larger tango clique. A significant group of followers stopped attending their events, even though they are great dancers.

I don't think much of attributing characteristics to people that are based on circumstances, for example an imbalance between women and men.

At the milonga that I described, a friend of mine was unhappy that only a few of the good leaders danced with her. And she didn't mention how many beginner leaders she gave a beautiful tanda. So she isn't a better person because she is a woman, nor is she a better person because she isn't part of the inner circle there. She simply doesn't have enough resources to regularly visit this milonga and those in the area.

And even if men are missing, everything is always in balance. If she didn't like it, then maybe she'll stay away next time. If I liked it, then maybe I'll go again next time. And a new balance is created.

The "pretty Asian beginner" I danced with isn't a better person because she is a beginner either. She simply hoped that I would be willing to lead her musically in an open embrace, and I think I did not disappoint her.

In my mind, and as a person building a tango community, I want to see people be welcoming and friendly. I want to see people dancing with all levels. Everyone can give up a couple of tandas to give less desirable dancers a good experience. Then they get better. Whoever is there, is there. You just welcome everyone.

If you want to shape your event, don’t shun people. Resort to a private event.

So as a community builder, probably in a rather small and isolated community, you have your own interests, and that is certainly a good thing for tango in your environment.
But in general, completely independent of you, if I need an example that tango dancers are no better people than the rest of the population, I usually choose teachers and organizers.

 

[Brummbaer]

I hope you play speed tandas

Speed tandas (2 dances) have their place. Can be good with the right DJ and crowd. 4T,3VM have become a norm in Europe, but 3TVM in the UK (and sometimes elsewhere). 3 or 4 tangos, and cortinas or not, is just another bit of tango lore which has evolved.

 

[Brummbaer]

But not for just one couple.

Depends on the couple and how you read the audience. Might be worthwhile changing the cortina set within the milonga if it's not appreciated or appropriate.

 

[itwillhappen]

Hate to break the news but there are beginners who will also reject (good) experienced dancers because they want to dance with their peers. If there are enough people for them to dance with, they don't need you. This breaks down mostly into age, background, peer group categories. This is probably a function of the local community, but it's real enough. Most of them aren't particularly in need of "advanced" dancers because they have a bunch of options.

I also think that it will not help much to come up with rules so that everyone dances with everyone else. Especially if you are not the organizer of a milonga.

You will be more satisfied if you realistically ask yourself the question "who needs me". Even if it means that the organizer needs your entrance fee.

 

[Brummbaer]

Recently a group of followers talked about how there were particular tangueros who were elitist and clearly judgmental.

There are some tangueras who don't want to dance with beginners as well. Not a clique!

There are some tangueros who don't want to dance with an advanced tanguera. It's like being handed the keys to a supercar and told to take it for a spin around, say, Paris at rush hour starting at the Champs Élysées and around the Arc de Triomphe. But you're totally liable.

It's about feeling sufficiently confident. I dance occasionally with a maestra. Initially scary, but we've come to know each other. Just Keep It Simple. Questionable whether or not the hyperactive follower with flying stilettos is 'advanced'.

 

[Bailango]

People want to grow tango, yet you are talking about purposefully being elitist and shunning people. If you don’t think they will talk to others about it you are wrong.

Recently a group of followers talked about how there were particular tangueros who were elitist and clearly judgmental. They were part of a larger tango clique. A significant group of followers stopped attending their events, even though they are great dancers.

In my mind, and as a person building a tango community, I want to see people be welcoming and friendly. I want to see people dancing with all levels. Everyone can give up a couple of tandas to give less desirable dancers a good experience. Then they get better. Whoever is there, is there. You just welcome everyone.

If you want to shape your event, don’t shun people. Resort to a private event.

I agree but why is that in reply to my post to @itwillhappen which has nothing to do with above.

 

[Bailango]

"Regular who brings a beginner" — In the vast majority of cases, some experienced older male leader personally teaching a young female beginner. I don't want to encourage this potential power imbalance.

There will be always a few like that irrespective of any type of milonga

"full-length danceable cortinas, including salsa, rock, disco, and more" — You're alienating all but the most accepting, of which there are only a few! And it's usually (but not always) the really bad leaders who compensate for their lack of, well, everything in tango, by dragging followers out onto the floor during such cortinas. And then they ruin the milonga for the rest of us because we have to wait while Mr. and Mrs. Salsero dance salsa at a milonga.

I haven’t seen followers dragged to dance floor during cortina. At our cortina if DJ sees a few people dancing on the floor they will extend the cortina. No one seems to mind. Followers will often say no or will be the one that will ask leaders for a dance during cortina. It could be swing, bachata, salsa or merengue. But only if DJ plays that kind of music. Which is rare. Most cortinas are 30 seconds.

What’s wrong in waiting for 3 or 4 minutes if other people are dancing. No DJ I have seen extends cortina if only one or two couples are dancing. Usually they will when five, six or more take to the floor. I don’t see that ruining milonga in anyway. And in the golden age it was common to dance other dances at milonga. A lot of Argentine teachers (old and new) can dance rock (it is like a hive or swing), which seems to be popular in BsAs.

but of course I reserve the right to decline for any reason.

Have you ever declined?

 

[Bailango]

I was recently harassed before the the milonga started. The lawyers for the poor, oppressed and disenfranchised asked me, I hope you play speed tandas, look at how many followers are sitting unhappily on the sidelines. The top ladies whispered in my other ear, you play four-part tandas, right?

What is speed tanda.

 

[Bailango]

Ok I'll counter propose: Mixed traditional/alternative/non tango music,

When I been to such milonga, everyone complains and no one is happy. I avoid going to such ones. Sometimes there is live music and the DJ will be the one that likes playing mix tandas. I will go for the live music and the mix tandas I consider cost of hearing live music.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'm a little surprised because you once described how tight your schedule is if you just want to meet the expectations of your regular dancer partners.

Yep. I didn't say it'd be easy.