itwillhappen
Forum Master
That's also possible. I don't have any sign for that because I avoid making future appointments.
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The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
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TTanguero
Forum Master
Yes, I tend to point to my watch with a questioning look.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
When men learn to lead, it's not much different. It doesn't matter whether they know they're stumbling around, if the woman makes an inconsiderate comment, then things get really difficult for the couple. Let's look at it the other way round: women without strong social skills have a hard time with tango.I don’t lead in milongas. Just for fun in class and practicas. Well, the guys I have led think themselves that they are really good followers
My preferred dance partners, who are just learning to lead, carefully test the boundaries. Only one is different, I like her clear egoism. But to the extent that this egoism moves away from dancing with men and towards dancing with women, she becomes significantly less interesting to me.
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ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
That could be taken to mean you have to leave in a little while.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I guess so, but it seems to be understood.
opendoor
Forum Master
In the open Lindy Hop classes that I attended, gender or role parity was never taken into account. Since there were more women present, some slipped into the leading position without being asked. Men never did the opposite. Perhaps my data base is not large enough, but I think that the development in tango has progressed much further. In open tango classes, the men are more likely to move into the following role than the ladies do the opposite. Am I right?I don’t lead in milongas. Just for fun in class and practicas. Well, the guys I have led think themselves that they are really good followers
Yes that’s how it was here 14-15 years back. I don’t know now. The classes and workshops always have extra leaders.
It's going to depend on where the imbalance is, isn't it? If there are more women than men, women are more likely to dance lead, and if there are more men than women, men are more likely to dance follow.
My sense in the US is that women are less likely to be concerned about violating traditional gender norms than men. (which makes sense, since those tend to be advantageous as a whole to men than women).
Where I am in the US it is quite liberal and lots of people of all genders dance both roles in the swing dances.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
From a preferred dance partner, to whom I gave insight into my tango network, I was given insight into her tango network in return.
At a basic level, double-role is an excellent, independent solution for women. The sisterhood meets regularly on a large property, cooks, exchanges ideas, practices leading and dances together.
And above that is the workshop level, currently gender-balanced, organizing that is much more complex. I myself don't dance currently with half of the selected women at a milonga. That's matter to team building, to be dealed with case by case individually. Men have no say in the organization; the location is organized by one woman, the top workshop teacher by the other woman, and by the time the construct is presented to the group, the opera has long been sung.
At the weekend event itself, I also noticed how quickly my preferred dance partner processed any social input. All we had to do was come in, sit down at a table; I knew the other tanguera, I invited her, her partner routinely cross invited my partner. And while I later exchanged a few irrelevant words with the man, the female manager and the female tango teacher were sitting at the side and expanding their network.
So we men don't need to be under any illusions, maybe in the past tango was organized by men for women, it will be mainly organized by women for women and men, in that order. That is neither good nor bad, it follows from interest and is simply the way it is in all other dance and most bodywork areas.
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The past before we started dancing is irrelevant. It doesn’t impact today. Though I find your take that “was organized by men for women” a bit strange. I see no such evidence since starting tango.
Therefore men being under an illusion sounds like a strawman.
It doesn’t matter who organizes. What they want is it to be successful. Maximize or optimize the participants depending on what they are aiming for.
Your posts keep alluding to illusion that women are usurping something that was in men’s domain or men are losing something. To me it is a simple evolution and responding to the dynamics of the time. Those who are more interested, and have more stake, will naturally take more initiatives.
I am sure the tango cliques and a group of tango friends do the same everywhere. Once in a while I get invited to something like above. I am not that invested in tango to try to socialize and insert myself into the fabric of off-the-dance-floor tango community. There are others who are. They often fraternize around other tango centric people.
Some take initiatives to arrange for picnics in the park, potluck, and dance. Sometimes such events are posted on the tango calendar, sometimes it is a word of mouth, and sometimes private invitation.
We are a leader heavy community (though some women will disagree) and right now there are three different instructors conducting three different progressive workshop series for women who want to lead. A participant in one told me they have 6 to 12 sign ups. So 6 pairs learning and switching in the class.
Similar to what you said - meeting at a property on Saturday or Sunday, spending time cooking, watching movies, time by the beach and dancing is also common with some instructors and their group of regular students.
P.S. - if I have to eyeball, 70% of the organizers are women.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Just a misunderstanding, for me "in the past" was in the 40's of the last century.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
I don't really care who organizes it, the main thing is that he/she does it well. And it is a difficult optimization task; if you achieve your primary goal, perhaps two secondary goals sooner or later, and don't cause unnecessary collateral damage, then it is well done.
There are things that objectively don't have to concern me. My favorite dance partner tells me about the double-role women's group probably because she is doing risk assessment and mitigation. She also tried to tell me that she doesn't yet know whether she wants to lead at milongas. I laughed at the girl and explained to her that she is a "born leader" and that she can practically not avoid part time leading, she owes it to the group.
Well, a seasoned manager who has made it in a STEM environment throughout her professional life is certainly not going to allow herself to be labeled as a "girl" and laughed at. But we are in the private sphere, and she needs to know whether I will react negatively, for the gender-balanced workshop group and also events. And if I have already anticipated that she will lead, then everything is fine. Feminism, equal opportunities, gender balance, wallflowers, LGBT+, the deforestation of the rainforest - that is obviously secondary to her goal at that(!) moment.
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Mod hat on
Hey, all. I deleted several of the last posts on this thread as they were veering much too far off topic and political (and, IMO, in a way that could make people uncomfortable). Can we keep this thread at least nominally related to dance?
Hey, all. I deleted several of the last posts on this thread as they were veering much too far off topic and political (and, IMO, in a way that could make people uncomfortable). Can we keep this thread at least nominally related to dance?