The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[itwillhappen]

How are y’all getting young hotshots in your scene?

It may happen through segregation from a much larger community. There is a TangoYoung group near us. They tend to keep the addresses and schedules of their events somewhat under wraps so that not too many old geezers show up. Or they arrange to meet at public events and dance among themselves. The problem is that the organizers are gradually getting older themselves.

Alternatively, young organizers create events within established venues that appeal more to younger people than to older ones, and where mirada/cabeceo halfway work. After all, the younger have nothing against older people; their own parents are likely so. They simply don't want to be forced to dance with them.

 

[itwillhappen]

Interesting, I have the opposite experience. I'm a woman of "childbearing age" and at milongas I mostly dance with followers my own age, though I'm open to dancing with any age. But my percentage of successful cabeceos with older followers is abysmal, they seem to strongly prefer dancing with men.

Perhaps it comes down to the competitive landscape and the prospects for success? As Melina Sedó reports, the practice of dancing both roles is widespread among experienced, mature women - even at encuentros.
At a high-level milonga that lasted over ten hours and featured several dynamic male dancers, I recently did not see any younger women leading.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I am 69 years old now

Turns out you aren’t the oldest member here!

 

[brujo]

Turns out you aren’t the oldest member here!

Bro you don’t look a day over 50 stop lying

 

[opendoor]

Turns out you aren’t the oldest member here!

Is it the West Coast climate that has prevented you from aging?

 

[Tangogal]

I recently went to a practica with two dual role dancers. The woman I knew beforehand the man was new to me. I knew that this practica would be tiny and I was prepared to dance as a leader for a song or two (it wasn’t necessary).

My observation: the woman danced exactly like she did before learning to lead. It made no difference to her quality of movement, reaction times or interpretation of the music. She danced a few times with the dual role man and with some of the other women and with the other men about equally. It was a very casual practica so the non-dancing women did some ocho and giro drills between chatting.

The dual role man danced with most of the women as a leader. He danced as a follower with only the dual role woman. He seemed to be quite an inexperienced leader when I danced with him - I later learned this is not the case.

Conclusion: dual role dancing works somewhat well for women. They get to dance with a higher volume of partners. Dual role dancing doesn’t seem to work at all for men. They dance with the same women they would have danced with anyway.

I have seen some great dancers in the opposite role at milongas (Ariadna Naveira and Noelia Hurtado spring to mind). But it doesn’t seem to be an effective strategy for the average dancer.

 

[Bailango]

Chiming in with a bit of contrarian experience from our milongas.

I do see young (below 30) men and women out at practicas and milongas. Practicas are more younger lot (below 40 looking) than older lot (50 looking or above). It is rare to see anyone above 60 at practicas.

90% of the women who try to lead tend to be younger. More women are taking classes designed to teach followers to lead and they also tend to be more below 40.

While a very few might have preference of dancing with certain age, it only extends to people they don’t know. I do not see people segregate themselves based on the age at milongas. The segregation is based more on cliques. I see men dancing with younger women and I see younger men dancing with older women.

So while the scene can get very snobbish, it is not based on ageism.

@brujo I am very surprised by your experience of Portland scene. Most west coast cities are similar. I have danced with younger dancers from Portland. Something must have changed in last 4-5 years.

Non-tango social dances always attracted far more people including youngsters. That hasn’t changed over the years.

More men tried to follow in the class than women trying to lead as far back as I remember. That is not the same as them wanting to switch roles at milongas. Women preferring to try leading only got prevalent in past 8-10 years. There have been many men in a class over the years who said they preferred to lead me than women in the class. That is because they thought they were able to learn.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Something must have changed in last 4-5 years.

!!!
I'm mostly dancing with my regular partner at a practica at Alex Krebs' place, so I can't comment on the overall PDX AT scene. I will say I was appalled when I went to the Director Park outdoor event last year. No discernable ronda and bumper car like conditions on the pista. I think I've been to two "milongas" that seemed fairly normal. And, as I've written before, it seems like a whole new generation of teachers pretty much. I've talked to several people who tried lessons and quit, saying that it was "Too hard" or maybe the teacher wasn't very good.
And since I'm here I gotta say that the Portland metro area has a very active country western scene. Bushwhackers in Tualatin has a whole bunch of young guys and gals that can fill up the 400+ capacity building with people lined up waiting for their chance to get in on the weekend. For young people it's a much lower bar to learn enough to get on the dance floor and kind of know what you are doing.
Oh, and single sex couples are extremely rare at the CW places (although there may be something going on downtown that I'm not aware of.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Is it the West Coast climate that has prevented you from aging?

HAHA... don't know about not aging! but...

First half of my life was "back East" but more mid West ish. How wrinkled, or not, we are is one indicator of age so... I got second degree burns on my nostrils and tops of my ears when I climbed Mount Hood (missed that bit when our very experienced guide told us about covering or sun screening those areas) After that I became VERY aware of what the sun was doing to my skin. I also have never smoked, something that killed my father in his mid forties. That early death was my heads up to be aware of not doing things that aren't good for me, and doing things that ARE good for me. I could go on, but don't want to swallow the bait too deeply!

 

[brujo]

And since I'm here I gotta say that the Portland metro area has a very active country western scene. Bushwhackers in Tualatin has a whole bunch of young guys and gals that can fill up the 400+ capacity building with people lined up waiting for their chance to get in on the weekend. For young people it's a much lower bar to learn enough to get on the dance floor and kind of know what you are doing.
Oh, and single sex couples are extremely rare at the CW places (although there may be something going on downtown that I'm not aware of.

Tango can’t compete with dances like this one in Portland - Sujata Shyam on Instagram: "Sk8ers what a wonderful night of learning, growing and playing!!!! Choreo by @morganweske So grateful for each person who shows up, ready to lock in and have some fun. I loved everyone's pastel colors and bunny ears! We are still on the lookout for a fall and winter home for flowrollchoreo skate classes so if you know any spots please talk to me:) #morganweskechoreography"

 

[Miradamiranda]

In my opinion the leader role has fare more creative freedom. As a follower you have to hand over the musicality to the leader and hope that it matches yours, and when you're lucky the leader gives you some space to express and decorate. As a leader you can really express the music in all of its depth.

I don’t really agree with this. I find the leader is kept so busy with the logistics of floor space and the direction and vocabulary of moves, that he often doesn’t have the extra energy to truly express creative freedom. I as a follower feel my contribution to the musicality and general creativity of the dance is significantly more than merely throwing in a few adornos when ‘allowed’.

 

[Eleven!]

I don’t really agree with this. I find the leader is kept so busy with the logistics of floor space and the direction and vocabulary of moves, that he often doesn’t have the extra energy to truly express creative freedom. I as a follower feel my contribution to the musicality and general creativity of the dance is significantly more than merely throwing in a few adornos when ‘allowed’.

As a leader I agree with this totally. I enjoy the conversation in the dance and want the follower to join me in expressing the music not just being controlled.

Part (most) of the problem is that this is extremely hard! The leader needs to understand how to create space in the dance for the follower, and also needs to listen to the followers musicality, body and personal style to create appropriate space not just an absence of a lead. The follower needs to be able to use the space created musically but without upsetting the leaders contribution to the dance.

And this should be in all caps - its not just about adornos

 

[Hophop]

I don’t really agree with this. I find the leader is kept so busy with the logistics of floor space and the direction and vocabulary of moves, that he often doesn’t have the extra energy to truly express creative freedom. I as a follower feel my contribution to the musicality and general creativity of the dance is significantly more than merely throwing in a few adornos when ‘allowed’.

The vocabulary ( with the speed and the quality of movement and embrace) IS the expression of creative freedom.

 

[Eleven!]

I find the leader is kept so busy with the logistics of floor space and the direction and vocabulary of moves, that he often doesn’t have the extra energy to truly express creative freedom.

Oh, the bandwidth problem. Thinking about this more I need to make another point. Yes, it helps massively if the follower also contributes to the musicality of the dance as this then isn't something the leader needs to be spending mental energy on, but this isn't free space in the mental bandwidth. It still takes some energy to include the follower within the conversation. The better the followers musicality the better the match and more more mental bandwidth saved. But also there is a massive net gain overall when the musicality of both is complimentary - the musicality of the dance can be much better than either could have achieved alone (at least in my experience). And obviously the better the overall dance is for both participants in the embrace. This is HARD.

There is another obvious point to be made from this. The leader is effectively also dancing with all of the other couples around them. The busier the dancefloor the more mental bandwidth it takes, and the less there is that the leader can devote to the follower. The consequences of this that I don't think enough people realise is that: 1. Dancing well gets harder and requires more mental bandwidth the closer all the dancers are to each other. I have danced many times in milongas where you are brushing the other couples almost continually. It is still possible to be musical and I have still had some wonderful tandas where I still remained musical and connected to the follower but it becomes exponentially harder to do the closer everyone is. So expect to sit out every second tanda to mentally recover! And 2. even on a sparsely occupied dance floor people dancing wildly (leaders not paying attention to anyone else and followers dancing high boleos into spaces they cannot see when it isn't led - just as two examples) require even more mental bandwith allocation from leaders. Its not just about preventing injury but its about the quality of the dance that is possible.

 

[TTanguero]

The busier the dancefloor the more mental bandwidth it takes [...] even on a sparsely occupied dance floor people dancing wildly (leaders not paying attention to anyone else and followers dancing high boleos into spaces they cannot see when it isn't led - just as two examples) require even more mental bandwith

I'd say the latter always does, while the former may or may not depending on the quality of the floorcraft. I've had some of my very best (and most relaxed) tandas on crowded floors surrounded by leaders with great floorcraft.