The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[fiesta0618]

I'm glad you wrote that. But keep in mind that the current subtopic is dictatorship in musical lead-following! You can't simply separate navigation from musicality.

No? I think you can. I think it's quite possible to navigate well without being musical, or be musical without navigating well.

I think you're quite right that combining the two is the ultimate goal. And it is your nature to set high standards, so I understand why you would find it unacceptable to separate them. But they are, in fact, separable!

 

[Eleven!]

No? I think you can. I think it's quite possible to navigate well without being musical, or be musical without navigating well.

I think you're quite right that combining the two is the ultimate goal. And it is your nature to set high standards, so I understand why you would find it unacceptable to separate them. But they are, in fact, separable!

I agree with the first sentence totally. Although I do see a tendency for people to either do both well or both poorly. Which may well be why opendoor thinks they cannot be separated - there is apparently a lot of evidence for that! But overall I think they can definitely be separate skills.

As to the second sentence I would argue that not only are they separable but I would go further and say they almost have to be separated. I agree that they are interlinked and in some ways interdependent. BUT for me the couple dancing to a particular piece of music can express the musicality of that conversation in many ways. The demands of navigation constrain what options can be possible (or at least should be used). We are sharing the dancefloor with other couples not just dancing on our own (unless its a show obviously - I'm talking about social dancing here) and so the needs of navigation guide (or limit) what expressions of the musicality can be used and hence my assertion that they are separate skills even when you can do both well.

I agree with you both though - combining the two is the ultimate goal

But I think my distinction above is valuable - it explains why I find dancing musically takes more and more mental bandwidth and effort, as the demands of navigation increase, whether that be from a crowded milonga or the presence of other dancers with poor navigation skills.

 

[Bailango]

But I think my distinction above is valuable - it explains why I find dancing musically takes more and more mental bandwidth and effort, as the demands of navigation increase, whether that be from a crowded milonga or the presence of other dancers with poor navigation skills.

I am not sure what you mean by musicality taking more bandwidth. You have said it once or twice before too.

As I see it, a crowded milonga constraints the movement. Then the musicality has to fit within the possible movement. Perhaps some will consider that as a constraint on musicality. More constraint on movement doesn’t tax my bandwidth.

Presence of poor navigators whether on a crowded or an uncrowded ronda is a different challenge. It is like driving car on a pothole filled road. You are maneuvering and braking more than driving. It is worse than that. You could be dancing in your space and others come and bump you.

 

[opendoor]

..I find dancing musically takes more ..mental bandwidth and effort, as ..navigation...

For me, it's exactly the opposite. My musicality is pre-installed, but driving bumper cars on a crowded dance floor really is resource-consuming. In addition, I don't remain emotionally neutral then and get annoyed when dancers occupy two lanes, extend their elbows or dance backwards. And this annoyance actually requires the extra bandwidth.

 

[Rabbit]

And that's precisely what's frowned upon in tango today. Breaking out of the ronda is punished. Framing against the strong beats is punished. Expressing one's personal, emotional inner life is punished.

Punished in what sense? I just dance my own personal (very free and expressive) style and I'm rewarded with the attention of the partners I want to dance with.

Not being invited to encuentros that I don't want to attend is no punishment

 

[itwillhappen]

Assuming that followers somehow have terrible musicality, or do not know how to communicate a proposal without disrupting the dance, is patronizing. Leaders need to assume that followers are as good at everything in the dance as they are, and should never assume that they are doing a follower some sort of favor by replacing their brain in the role of operating their body. Most people prefer to have their brain and body respected.

I was raised in the late 1960s through the 1980s, in a smaller city, where partner dance had overtones of "men courting women," so I do have an essential bias. That bias is my problem, though, and I strive not to make it anybody else's problem . . . at the milonga, I can invite and lead women 99% of the time without getting in anybody's face about their choices.

I think "men patronizing women" and "men courting women" are simply different ways of framing the situation, depending on the intended assessment and the interests of both parties.
Actions like holding a door open or escorting someone back to their seat can also be viewed as patronizing, courting ... or simply being polite. Misogynistic thinking or behavior must be distinguished from this.

"Patronizing" behavior can actually feel good for both parties if it aligns with their socialization. One might feel guilty for doing it, or guilty for *not* doing it; that is all part of social development.

Early on in my tango journey, I decided to largely forgo the "patronizing" aspect. For instance, I am not responsible for ensuring that all women dance enough. And I generally don't walk over to a woman's seat to ask for a dance; she has to look my way first. However, I escort her back to her seat after the tanda - so here a clear "patronizing" behavior is my default.

And, of course, I lead women the vast majority of the time when dancing; another clear example of "patronizing" behavior that feels well. That said, my girlfriend is free to lead me whenever she likes; so we sometimes switch roles even mid-song. And what others think about that is also none of our business.

 

[TTanguero]

I escort her back to her seat after the tanda - so here a clear "patronizing" behavior is my default.

I actually posed this question in a large Facebook group, asking whether followers considered this courteous or patronising. Overwhelmingly, it was welcomed. In fact, from memory, there was only a single follower who objected to it.

 

[itwillhappen]

In fact, from memory, there was only a single follower who objected to it.

I once attended a tango workshop where the instructor advised women not to give in to the usual heteronormative and patronizing behaviors - for instance, by consciously choosing to stand somewhere else if the man stepped onto the dance floor first and picked a spot to start. And till now, I’ve been waiting ten years for this single follower...
...and take most by the hand, just to be safe.

 

[enrosskay]

I can understand that. As a leader, I also prefer a certain height in my followers. While everyone says that height doesn't matter, that's not true. My joints notice it immediately. And vice versa. When I still was able to following, I also preferred men who were a bit taller.

I notice that my elbow and shoulder get sore when i'm leading a tall follower. I'm about 5'10 / 1.79cm so quite a few followers approach my height and, in heels, some are as tall or even taller

 

[Miradamiranda]

I notice that my elbow and shoulder get sore when i'm leading a tall follower. I'm about 5'10 / 1.79cm so quite a few followers approach my height and, in heels, some are as tall or even taller

Then leave it at the height that feels natural for you. I find it unnatural when a leader thinks they have to hold their hand artificially high just because I’m tall.

Or, maybe your specific tall followers are holding on too tightly and not being conscious of their weight.

When I dance with shorter leaders, I’m extremely conscious about not letting my weight/height pull them off balance, ruin their momentum, or hurt in any preventable way. One regular partner of mine is a tiny petite lady, and I feel if I hold her hand with any force more than the slightest touch, I’d crush her hand. The only time she tightens her hold is as a signal that something unexpected or otherwise intense is about to happen.

 

[enrosskay]

Then leave it at the height that feels natural for you. I find it unnatural when a leader thinks they have to hold their hand artificially high just because I’m tall.

Or, maybe your specific tall followers are holding on too tightly and not being conscious of their weight.

When I dance with shorter leaders, I’m extremely conscious about not letting my weight/height pull them off balance, ruin their momentum, or hurt in any preventable way. One regular partner of mine is a tiny petite lady, and I feel if I hold her hand with any force more than the slightest touch, I’d crush her hand. The only time she tightens her hold is as a signal that something unexpected or otherwise intense is about to happen.

Thinking back, I really only noticed it with a male follower who was really tall, maybe 6'3, a good 4-5 inches taller than me. I'm unlikely to meet any female followers that height, even with heels, but if I do I will make sure to bring the arm down a little, within reason. He was also a beginner, so maybe he wasn't entirely stable on his axis.

 

[Bailango]

I notice that my elbow and shoulder get sore when i'm leading a tall follower. I'm about 5'10 / 1.79cm so quite a few followers approach my height and, in heels, some are as tall or even taller

I have stated it before. I don't have issues dancing with women who may be 6" or 7" taller than me.

I find it hard to adjust when a lady is below 5' in heels. I am not used to leading women who are 6" or 7" shorter than me, though I can lead them. Below 5' starts becoming a challenge of too short.