The Pain of Close Embrace dancing...

[dchester]

And so, I will have to suffer thru dances that are terribly difficult whenever I make the mistake of asking someone to dance who has not learned close-embrace. It seems that all the rage in some venues, (where I am presently), is for open hold dancing with Nuevo moves and kicks. I had posted in a previous thread that now that I can dance, I am noticing that other good male dancers are dancing with women who trip them and pull them off balance...and I guess that I will have to master that route, too... well, I've got some new info..all these guys are opening their embrace to dance with all the women (and they are still tripping, etc.)..it seems that almost no one in Phila. is really dancing close embrace...some are but very few. The women look fine when dancing open...it's that much easier for them! ..but try dancing close embrace with the same females..ugh, lifeless, heavy, clueless and seemingly impossible to lead. (I'm tired at the moment and will continue this rant in another post, soon..feel free to comment or criticize, meanwhile)

Mario, here is my advice. This coming Halloween weekend, you need to get on I-95 and drive up to Boston (actually a suburb, named Medford), and attend Tango de los Muertos.

http://www.tangodelosmuertos.com/home.html

We dance quite a bit of close embrace up here, and you may get the extra added bonus of meeting me.

 

[Light Sleeper]

I would agree

( and if you look behind you I'm the guy in the sleazy raincoat; something or other is trine for me, that's why I'm keeping my distance)

I can lead jivers with good axis and balance better than some tango dancers who've been learning for a couple of years, so I aim to to asess the woman's axis before I dance with her.
In fact the most beautiful, elegant, poised woman i know, is a woman I see walking to work and one day I'm going to ask her if she wants to learn tango.

Hee hee!
Makes sense re jivers etc. How do you find belly dancers? I think they take to tango well.
You go for it, my boy - ask her! I always want to ask guys with good posture if they want to learn tango. Mind you, they usually have luscious hair, too

 

[Light Sleeper]

If you not moving forwards or backwards, the amount of weight you are sharing (yes, it's about sharing weight towards each other) is balanced.

Do you mean I may have let my posture go/ leant too much forward and that forced him bolt upright like an ironing board? If anything, initially the leaning in felt so foreign I wasn't doing it enough.

You CAN dance "close embrace" without this, but in my opinion it is not nearly as satisying and I would rather dance open at that point

Last week I danced what I would call close embrace with my partner, we didn't do anything too fancy as I am not accustomed to the level of disassociation required but it was nice for both of us... we shared weight but only a little.. and I had a lovely serene look on my face.. nearly approaching a smile

 

[hbboogie1]

I'll harp on this once and there may be some disagreement. But I've spent time learning both and personally find a difference, at least between the type of close embrace I do and open embrace. (And it certainly helps explain why they either do close or open in Portland, but not both in the same song usually.)

Open embrace posture is not the same as close embrace posture. Neither one is out of balance when done correctly.

They are not interchangeable. Applying open embrace posture and balance to close embrace dancing and close embrace posture to open embrace dancing will lead you to problem with whomever you are dancing with if they are not matching you.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. It is so easy to dance both open and closed in the same song that is if you’ve been trained as a leader in this style. If you had a chance to dance with someone that was expert in this style you would not only enjoy the dance but would be amazed at how easy it is to follow and also how well balanced you stay. He key here is a well-trained leader.
Mario, when you dance close embrace make sure you start off very basic and take it slow and easy. Let the woman get comfortable with following your basic walking and basic turning. After awhile lead her into one back ocho just to see if she’s capable of that level of following. What I’m trying you say is don’t rush to show her every step you’ve learned over the past two years. The simpler you keep it the more she will enjoy dancing with you. And don’t force the close embrace on her. Take it easy hold her close but not too close wait till you feel her getting more comfortable with your lead and slowly bring her closer until you are in the embrace Now she’s relaxed and will look forward to dancing with you again. Remember keep it simple the biggest mistake leaders make is trying to teach on the dance floor and doing every move in their repertoire. Pay attention to her and the music don’t utter a sound, your lead speaks for itself.

 

[dchester]

I'll harp on this once and there may be some disagreement. But I've spent time learning both and personally find a difference, at least between the type of close embrace I do and open embrace. (And it certainly helps explain why they either do close or open in Portland, but not both in the same song usually.)

Open embrace posture is not the same as close embrace posture. Neither one is out of balance when done correctly.

They are not interchangeable. Applying open embrace posture and balance to close embrace dancing and close embrace posture to open embrace dancing will lead you to problem with whomever you are dancing with if they are not matching you.

I'm not sure that this is exactly a disagreement, but there are (at least) two types of close embrace. They are with weight sharing, and without weight sharing. The weight sharing embrace (in the US, some call this either apilado, or milonguero style) is somewhat different from close embrace without weight sharing (in the US, some call this salon). Using US (not Argentine) terminology, Salon is much closer to open, than Milonguero style is.

 

[bastet]

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. It is so easy to dance both open and closed in the same song that is if you’ve been trained as a leader in this style. If you had a chance to dance with someone that was expert in this style you would not only enjoy the dance but would be amazed at how easy it is to follow and also how well balanced you stay. He key here is a well-trained leader.
Mario, when you dance close embrace make sure you start off very basic and take it slow and easy. Let the woman get comfortable with following your basic walking and basic turning. After awhile lead her into one back ocho just to see if she’s capable of that level of following. What I’m trying you say is don’t rush to show her every step you’ve learned over the past two years. The simpler you keep it the more she will enjoy dancing with you. And don’t force the close embrace on her. Take it easy hold her close but not too close wait till you feel her getting more comfortable with your lead and slowly bring her closer until you are in the embrace Now she’s relaxed and will look forward to dancing with you again. Remember keep it simple the biggest mistake leaders make is trying to teach on the dance floor and doing every move in their repertoire. Pay attention to her and the music don’t utter a sound, your lead speaks for itself.

you know- I've been nice...and now I'm just tired of it.

I'm going to say this once.

Stop picking on my posts. STOP!

I am happy that you have learned a style you are happy with. Your style is not my style. It is not the way I learned. The people in Portland dance mainly closed. Or they dance open late in the evening. They don't generally switch back and forth and this is how I learned.

I am quite capably trained to go back and forth from open to closed. I prefer not to but do it when it is led.

Super for you to go back and forth. Keep at is if this makes makes you happy but stop trying to sell it to me.

 

[bastet]

I'm not sure that this is exactly a disagreement, but there are (at least) two types of close embrace. They are with weight sharing, and without weight sharing. The weight sharing embrace (in the US, some call this either apilado, or milonguero style) is somewhat different from close embrace without weight sharing (in the US, some call this salon). Using US (not Argentine) terminology, Salon is much closer to open, than Milonguero style is.

yes- thank you dchester. the entire point.

 

[dchester]

Mario, when you dance close embrace make sure you start off very basic and take it slow and easy. Let the woman get comfortable with following your basic walking and basic turning. After awhile lead her into one back ocho just to see if she’s capable of that level of following. What I’m trying you say is don’t rush to show her every step you’ve learned over the past two years. The simpler you keep it the more she will enjoy dancing with you. And don’t force the close embrace on her. Take it easy hold her close but not too close wait till you feel her getting more comfortable with your lead and slowly bring her closer until you are in the embrace Now she’s relaxed and will look forward to dancing with you again. Remember keep it simple the biggest mistake leaders make is trying to teach on the dance floor and doing every move in their repertoire. Pay attention to her and the music don’t utter a sound, your lead speaks for itself.

I strongly agree with this.
:cheers:

 

[bastet]

I strongly agree with this.
:cheers:

I would also note that paying attention to her and the music involves something like Ampster's "dialing in"- seeing how not only she is responding to a lead, but also her body language- is she comfortable with what you are doing or is she tense (shoulders tight, back tight, legs tight...etc)? Paying attention to those types of things will give you a good indication of how you are doing with a follow and where her comfort zone lies, at least with steps and figures and probably with embrace as well.

 

[Ampster]

I would also note that paying attention to her and the music involves something like Ampster's "dialing in"- seeing how not only she is responding to a lead, but also her body language- is she comfortable with what you are doing or is she tense (shoulders tight, back tight, legs tight...etc)? Paying attention to those types of things will give you a good indication of how you are doing with a follow and where her comfort zone lies, at least with steps and figures and probably with embrace as well.

bastet,

Thank's for the reference.



Mario7:

Here's a few of my "Postings" that could help:

• Dialing in
• Make her feel safe, smart, and loved

 

[jantango]

Mario,

I suggest you find women who want to be hugged while they dance with you. That's all the embrace is. We all need to be hugged. The portenos figured it out a long time ago that body contact while dancing feels good. They continue for that reason. Tango is between a man and a woman. A woman feels safe and protected dancing in the arms of a man.

People who are afraid to get close prefer dancing separated from a partner. They don't know what they are missing. Cultural differences keep them from finding out. Dancing close isn't difficult. Two are connected, and there is communication without words.

The world is infatuated with tango because it is something that brings us closer together; we have body contact. Forget learning the "open" form of tango, and stick with the real thing if for no other reason than it feels good. Tango isn't to impress, it's to express. You do that with the embrace and moving together.

 

[opendoor]

contradiction

Everyone wants to start argentine tango in close embrace from the first lesson on. Why ? Because for the majority worldwide close embrace is simply just synonymic with argentine tango. But, at what price?

.. I dance in open embrace primarily and I disagree that it's easier. Totally!

And I totally agree, LS ! Open embrace is the more serious variety. Why: Because everyone thinks its easier.

Open embrace is more natural, .....

(Hey, Mladenac, please excuse for slashing your post.) Dancing naturally (for me i.e. own axis, own balance...) is really so difficult for a lot of dancers. Sounds crazy, but all my experience confirm it. So many unacquainted followers are a real distress for a leader, when dancing apilado (and v.v., of course) . I would argue that everyone should have learned to dance on his own axis before sharing it with someone else !

.. be satisfied with one or two (or three) good tangas a night..

!!​

cheers

 

[bastet]

Everyone wants to start argentine tango in close embrace from the first lesson on. Why ? Because for the majority worldwide close embrace is simply just synonymic with argentine tango. But, at what price?



And I totally agree, LS ! Open embrace is the more serious variety. Why: Because everyone thinks its easier.



(Hey, Mladenac, please excuse for slashing your post.) Dancing naturally (for me i.e. own axis, own balance...) is really so difficult for a lot of dancers. Sounds crazy, but all my experience confirm it. So many unacquainted followers are a real distress for a leader, when dancing apilado (and v.v., of course) . I would argue that everyone should have learned to dance on his own axis before sharing it with someone else !

I've actually found the opposite to be true in my own neck of the woods.

People stay away from or are uncomfortable with close embrace (once they find out it's actual work) and tend to stick to open (an by open, I also include what dchester is referring to as Salon in the US, where you are standing very close in front of each other but not really sharing your body weight at all. To me that's just a real close open and not an actual close embrace.)

But dancing open seems easier to some people, especially at the start in the formative time for them because there is space between them and other person, and they can get things to work without having really good technique...which comes back to bite them later when open really does become technically difficult...and then they have all this poor technique they have to go back and unlearn.

In close, you'd have to have at least accepatble technique working to make what you do work at all, and that, plus being so close in someone's space so soon, scares people.

But neither one is easier or harder, IMO. They both require skills that you have to develop and each one has their own issues that are both easier to deal with and harder.

 

[dchester]

Dancing naturally (for me i.e. own axis, own balance...) is really so difficult for a lot of dancers. Sounds crazy, but all my experience confirm it.

Might that be because what is natural for you, might be very un-natural for someone else.

 

[hbboogie1]

you know- I've been nice...and now I'm just tired of it.

I'm going to say this once.
Stop picking on my posts. STOP!
I am happy that you have learned a style you are happy with. Your style is not my style. It is not the way I learned. The people in Portland dance mainly closed. Or they dance open late in the evening. They don't generally switch back and forth and this is how I learned.
I am quite capably trained to go back and forth from open to closed. I prefer not to but do it when it is led.
Super for you to go back and forth. Keep at is if this makes makes you happy but stop trying to sell it to me.

]Open embrace posture is not the same as close embrace posture[/B]. Neither one is out of balance when done correctly.
They are not interchangeable. Applying open embrace posture and balance to close embrace dancing and close embrace posture to open embrace dancing will lead you to problem with whomever you are dancing with if they are not matching you.

Bastet
I’m really not picking on you I’m just making a comment on a statement you made to Mario.
I wasn’t being mean or abusive in what I said or the way I said it. This DF is for the interchange of ideas and we differ on this one.
If you want to dance open to closed using the same posture or balance there is a style you can learn. The changing from open to close embrace is what some call salon or elegente. See Orlando Piava on Youtube he was the greatest and most disciplined tango dancer of this style.
If your statement was based on a close embrace being the style where the woman has her arm wrapped over the mans back and the open embrace being more of a nuevo style then I agree with you, pretty hard to change back and forth and maintain balance or axis. The problem communicating on DF is that many times a comment is posted without important specifics on the style we’re speaking about. And it can get so technical when trying to get our point across, we get misunderstood. So once again I wasn’t picking on you or implying you don’t know how to dance I was not agreeing with the statement you made to Mario “They are not interchangeable