The Partnership

[Greybeard]

So that readers may assess the value of your posts and decide whether to read more, it would be helpful if you would provide some information about your dance background. For example, are you a teacher, student, professional, amateur; what style(s) of dance have you studied and over what period of time; plus any other information you think might be relevant to your credibility.

What is your dance background? Are you a teacher, student, both, neither? Are you a professional, amateur, both, neither? What style(s) of dance have you studied and over what period of time? What is your purpose in writing these posts?

I suspect he's a troll. Maybe I'll change my mind if he answers your questions. I'll not be replying to this thread until he does.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

a. The Three Types of Power

In the Modern Dance, three types of power must be used: first, moving power; second, stretch power; third, muscle power (muscle tone). The first is the most important power, which the dancer use to move the body forward, backward or to side. The second is the power used to stretch the body and its main purpose is to make the soft part of the body (mainly refers to the belly and waist) solid, so as that the power (mainly for the movement) can act effectively throughout the whole body. The third type is the power that makes the dancer's muscles stronger. Among these three types of power, except for the second type, which always remains unchanged, the first type and the third type always keep changing, and the third type always increases or decreases with the increase or decrease of the first type. The first and third types always maintain the same degree of power with each other.

There's so much wrong here it's hard to know where to start. Stretches are mostly in the limbs and spine, not the belly and waist. Muscles for motion, muscles for stretching, and muscles that oppose the motion and maintain tension are all the same type: skeletal muscle.

Most importantly, when you are trying to move the limbs to move the body, you ideally want the antagonist muscles, on the opposite side of the joint, to be completely relaxed, the exact opposite of "always increases or decreases with the increase or decrease" of the motive muscles. Relaxing the antagonist muscles allows you to move most efficiently, and was a major point of Bill Irvine's coaching, among others.

What can be quantified is the muscle tone when partners hold each other but have not yet begun to dance. What muscle tone is that? Facing a wall, stretch your right or left arm so that your fingertips are about an inch away from the wall; then let your body fall to the wall and spring back to stand straight again. If you succeed, it means that you muscle tone is just right; if your body falls to the wall, it means that your muscle tone is less than needed; and if your body falls back, it means that your muscle tone is stronger than needed.

This has nothing to do with muscle tone: it has to do with reflex speed and spinal reflexes.

 

[IndyLady]

OK well at least I'm gleaning some interesting things from Warren, so there is a silver lining here.

 

[opendoor]

..a teacher, student, both, neither.. a professional, amateur..

You don't have to be a troll if you are over 50 and start writing a dance theory treatise. Me for example, I started a post graduate study in dance pedagogy at the age of 52. I would have put my thesis up here for discussion on DF, too. Unfortunately, I had an accident and many knee surgeries and that dream shattered. So despite all my criticism in detail, I'm really interested what the opener's approach actually is!

 

[opendoor]

..has nothing to do with muscle tone: it has to do with reflex speed and spinal reflexes.

But his mistakes in particular indicate that he has dealt with these things himself. (Many here only learn by heart what others already have written). Of course, I was amazed that basic concepts such as projection or axis were missing.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

You don't have to be a troll if you are over 50 and start writing a dance theory treatise. Me for example, I started a post graduate study in dance pedagogy at the age of 52. I would have put my thesis up here for discussion on DF, too.

You would probably have mentioned that you were doing this, no?

What's the mindset of someone starting a thread like this, where their first post consists of assertions about how dancing works? It reads like they think they are the first ones ever to discover some new concept about dancing, and think the rest of the world will benefit from reading it. Rarely is that a realistic situation.

Unfortunately, I had an accident and many knee surgeries and that dream shattered. So despite all my criticism in detail, I'm really interested what the opener's approach actually is!

I'm not optimistic that there is one, but perhaps that will emerge with time.

 

[wahoo_foxtrot]

I'm not optimistic that there is one, but perhaps that will emerge with time.

I am not optimistic either. I do hope OP is just a person with a habit of talking in an assertive manner, with bluntness and macho (say, 2 standard deviations above the average) rather than a troll, which is very likely to be the case. I am not satisfied with his replies, but I am happy to be proven wrong.

I don't care too much about the credential part since credential is not something I demand to have a convo with a person. (On the side note, I do not feel OP likes to have a convo, but just to distribute his opinion. In that case, I am happy to see what his notes include).

 

[Julius Zhou]

What is your dance background? Are you a teacher, student, both, neither? Are you a professional, amateur, both, neither? What style(s) of dance have you studied and over what period of time? What is your purpose in writing these posts?


Amen.

What I can tell you now is that: 1. I have devoted a lot of time in my life to the sport dance and be good at the International Standard; 2. I am a very good leader, for example, able to dance Viennese Waltz and start to "fly" around in about ten seconds after the music has begun with a lady who even never dances before without any bumping and stopping on a very crowded floor.

 

[Julius Zhou]

Hi Julius, I find it could be useful to link these three types not only to linear movements, but also to circular (swivels, pivots) ones. My students found the concepts of the moving, standing, and shared axis quite helpful.

I agree with you at this point.

 

[Julius Zhou]

There's so much wrong here it's hard to know where to start. Stretches are mostly in the limbs and spine, not the belly and waist. Muscles for motion, muscles for stretching, and muscles that oppose the motion and maintain tension are all the same type: skeletal muscle.

Most importantly, when you are trying to move the limbs to move the body, you ideally want the antagonist muscles, on the opposite side of the joint, to be completely relaxed, the exact opposite of "always increases or decreases with the increase or decrease" of the motive muscles. Relaxing the antagonist muscles allows you to move most efficiently, and was a major point of Bill Irvine's coaching, among others.

This has nothing to do with muscle tone: it has to do with reflex speed and spina

As what I said that the main purpose of stretching body is to make the soft part of the body (mainly refers to the belly and waist) solid, so as that the power (mainly for the movement) can act effectively throughout the whole body. And When you increase you speed, your muscle tone will increase automatically for any kind of movement, such as walking, running, dancing etc.

 

[Julius Zhou]

2. The Techniques of Partnership

c.The Hold

Ladies feel man’s leading thoroughly through holding, so it is very important to have a correct hold. There are three connection points in the hold: 1) man’s right arm with lady’s left arm; 2) man’s left hand with lady’s right hand; 3. Man’s right hand with lady’s left back. Among them, the most important connection point is man’s right arm with lady’s left arm. The connection point of man’s left hand with lady’s right hand is also important, but ladies feel the most of man’s leading from the connection point of man’s right arm with lady’s left arm. A good leader with a good follower can even do the most steps together very well without a routine only by the hold of man’s right arm with lady’s left arm.

Ladies receive all of man’s leading messages thoroughly through the hold, such as moving direction, action timing, step size, rhythm, body shape, speed change and change of power strength, so the correct hold is very important. As far as leading and following are concerned, whether the hold is correct or not is related to the following three important aspects:

1. Whether the muscle tone of the man and lady is exactly same. Throughout dancing, the dancer must not only keep the muscle tone consistent with the moving power, but also maintain the same muscle tone as that of the partner. The muscle tone here mainly refers to the muscle tone of the hold. This requirement is mainly for ladies. High-level male dancers, because their muscle tone of the hold increases or decreases with the increase or decrease of the moving power, will accurately convey their moving messages to their female partner through the connection points, so that the lady knows right away her partner's moving direction, action timing, step size, rhythm, body shape, speed change, change of power strength, etc., thus being able to follow her partner accurately. If the lady’s muscle tone is not same as that of her partner, then the hold of the two will be more or less loosened. If it happens, the lady will not even be able to follow her partner well, let alone she can feel the movement of her partner nuancedly and accurately. The whole process of leading and following is like this: the man moves —> the man sends his moving messages through his hold —> the lady receives the man’s moving messages through her hold —> the lady moves. The four steps involved in this process seem to be sequential, but in the actual dancing process, they actually happen at the same time, that is, the change of the man’s moving power and the change of the man’s muscle tone occur at the same time while lady’s feeling of the man’s change of power strength and her reaction to this change happen at the same time too.

2. Whether the resistance of the connection points is always maintained. Even if the muscle tone of the man and lady is exact same, it still does not mean that the lady can fully feel the details of man’s moving. The man and lady must also always maintain the best contact at all the connection points. It is very crucial in leading and following. Failing to do this, especially when doing difficult steps or dancing without a routine, the man will feel not easy to lead the lady and the lady will not be able follow the man well, and the position to each other will also become very unstable. This aspect is also mainly for ladies. When the man holds up his right arm, the lady's left arm must always be lightly pressed on it, so that all the contact parts of this connection point have a moderate resistance. When the muscle tone increases, the resistance also increases. If the resistance is too strong, the man will feel heavy on his right arm; if the resistance is too weak, the hold will be loose and deformed. Generally speaking, too weak resistance is worse than too strong resistance, because the former will only make the man feel a little heavy on his arm while the latter will cause problems immediately in leading and following and will force the man to increase much of the muscle tone in order to lead the lady better. Many ladies, especially those inexperienced, have a false belief that maintaining a moderate resistance to man’s arm is simply pressing, so they put their arm over man’s arm even without a contact. As a result, the most important connection point of the hold functions very little.

3. Whether the frame has an outward power. The frame formed by the hold must always maintain an outward power, and the stronger the moving power, the faster the action speed, the greater the outward power should be. The outward power makes the hold of the man and lady very stable at any time and under any circumstances. If there is no such outward power, the connected bodies of the man and lady are like a loose frame that has not been fixed. It is difficult to maintain a good body balance when moving, especially when doing quick turning or spinning actions, and the power and speed of movement will inevitably be affected. How is the outward power of the frame produced? Both the man and lady slightly expand the power of their upper body outwards in four directions with their elbows to the sides and the back backwards. In this way, the connected bodies of the man and lady are like an inseparable whole fixed on a firm shelf.

(d. Two Common Mistakes that Must Be Avoided - to be continued)

 

[Warren J. Dew]

And When you increase you speed, your muscle tone will increase automatically for any kind of movement, such as walking, running, dancing etc.

Increase antagonist activation when running, and you'll get a stitch by 400m.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Ladies feel man’s leading thoroughly through holding, so it is very important to have a correct hold. There are three connection points in the hold: 1) man’s right arm with lady’s left arm; 2) man’s left hand with lady’s right hand; 3. Man’s right hand with lady’s left back. Among them, the most important connection point is man’s right arm with lady’s left arm. The connection point of man’s left hand with lady’s right hand is also important, but ladies feel the most of man’s leading from the connection point of man’s right arm with lady’s left arm.

Those are contact points, not connection. A good connection is always between the gentleman's body and the lady's body, whichever physical contact points may be used to transmit the connection.

A good leader with a good follower can even do the most steps together very well without a routine only by the hold of man’s right arm with lady’s left arm.

A good leader with a good follower can do most steps together well even without any contact points at all.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Ladies feel man’s leading thoroughly through holding, so it is very important to have a correct hold.

I assume you mean “followers,” not limited to “ladies,” because men can be followers too. And I assume you mean “leading,” not limited to “man’s leading,” because women can lead too.

There are three connection points in the hold: 1) man’s lead’s right arm with lady’s follower’s left arm; 2) man’s lead’s left hand with lady’s follower’s right hand; 3. Man’s lead’s right hand with lady’s follower’s left back. Among them, the most important connection point is man’s lead’s right arm with lady’s follower’s left arm.

Your insistence on gender-defined roles is so very tedious. I’ve edited the paragraph quoted above to demonstrate my objection. I realize you will probably ignore my concerns, but hopefully other readers will take my point.

And I don’t have enough time or patience to address all the other problems with your latest post, but the first huge one that jumped out at me is when you said there are only three connection points in the hold. What??? What about the the connections at the ribcage, hips, thighs, insides of the knees, and so on? I receive significant information the angle of my partner’s right hip, for example. I don’t understand how you can arbitrarily announce that the “most important connection” is the lead’s right arm with the follower’s left arm.

Many ladies, especially those inexperienced, have a false belief that maintaining a moderate resistance to man’s arm is simply pressing, so they put their arm over man’s arm even without a contact.

Where are you even coming up with this crap? Says who? Based on what data? Where’s any evidence to support your contentions?

Whatever. I’m done wasting my time on this.

 

[opendoor]

My feed back, Julius . In the first section you summond the experienced "high level" dancer, meanwhile the beginner is addressed. Your analysis also remains vague, as you do not use our biomechanical or physiological terminology. Is it possible that you have absolutely no idea what projection really means? A dance hold like the frame cannot be rolled up simply by using contact points. You lack the concept of the shared axis. Your explanations are based on a static notion of dance. You cannot explain movements, momentums, rotations. As a final point of criticism, I would like to remind you of the broad range of different dance holds: you can't lump standard, smooth and latin together. You didn't take the Argentine and Cuban dance hold into account. Finally, you can also lead without any physical contact. Seems you did not learn in an innovative dance environment, right?