The Pasada

[AndaBien]

... Does a pasada imply a pause for you? I know I've seen others (although not often), do pasadas without a pause before stepping over.

My first teacher often said, "There are no rules in tango", which I liked. There certainly are customary things with tango, within any community (I suppose), and certainly with individual dancers. Your partner may think something is implied, but is there any room for doubt?

If I ever get the idea that my partner is dancing automatically, I try to jar her awake by leading contrary to what I feel her doing. I certainly don't want to have anything automatic in my dance. Frequently?, usually?, of course, but not automatic.

It sounds to me like your partner had a different idea, and that she was not following your lead.

Was she a regular partner, who knows your moves?

 

[Steve Pastor]

...I was thinking: (1) I didn't pause you, and (2) if my chest is here and you are there, how is this my fault.

I'll just say I can really relate to this. Been there many times. And there were times when I finally said what I was thinking.

She can pause if she wants. And take as long as she wants, because you have opened that space for her to move into. Or, she has allowed the space to be created.

But that would make her responsible for not following your lead, and she has no grounds for telling you you did something "wrong".

Beware of leading energetic steps without a pause in this position!
(addressed to no one in particular and based on personal experience)

I would think that it is then her responsibility to come to you at that point rather than expect you to "use your arms" to lead her.

Alex Krebs, as I remember it, teaches (or, has taught) that she can take as long as she wants once that space is opened, and made a joke of being yawning and being bored while waiting for her to complete her step.

 

[opendoor]

Since it's quiet here, ... does a pasada (step over) imply a parada (stop or pause)? ..

For me: no it doesn´t! If you do it without pause within the flow, you have to give more space (straightend leg), and have to dissociate at a greater degree. Without pause it would be an alteración (on the beat) or a rebote (double time). All together means to interpret the music.

 

[Angel HI]

...I actually managed to keep my mouth shut and not say what I was thinking, which was: (1) I didn't pause you, and (2) if my chest is here and you are there, how is this my fault.

I was not going to comment b/c everyone else has said pretty much all there is, but this is such a pet peeve of mine that I had to just mention it. I concur completely with your [silent] assessments. I detest it when the woman 'takes over' these ops to do whatever crap she feels like, and then tells me that it's her option. ^&$@*(+!!, no it's not! We arrive at that point, and the lady takes off in a highjacked tantrum of stiletto fencing sieges of her surroundings and her partner. :shock: :evil: :headwall:

Neither does the parada imply a pasada nor the pasada, a parada. They are both implied by the intention of the man at that moment. If embellishments are not led, they may be allowed by the lead, that is to say, how the lead is indicated. Re the hands, we all know that this is incorrect. Yet, we have spoken of this chest thing before. The poster who said that there is always some sort of disconnect here is very correct. again, we must remember that a chest lead is argentinean for leading from center, not always "literally" from a velcroed chest.

comments are general, and not referencing any poster in particular.

 

[ant]

I detest it when the woman 'takes over' these ops to do whatever crap she feels like, and then tells me that it's her option. ^&$@*(+!!, no it's not! We arrive at that point, and the lady takes off in a highjacked tantrum of stiletto fencing sieges of her surroundings and her partner. :shock: :evil: :headwall:.

I think alot depends on the crap she is doing at that point. Is she playing with me or is she taking off as you say.

Neither does the parada imply a pasada nor the pasada, a parada. They are both implied by the intention of the man at that moment. If embellishments are not led, they may be allowed by the lead, that is to say, how the lead is indicated.

I feel this is a bit harsh. I prefer this

Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
She can pause if she wants. And take as long as she wants, because you have opened that space for her to move into.

...Or, she has allowed the space to be created.....

But that would make her responsible for not following your lead

I would then wait to see what she does with the space and time she created and when she gives me back the lead in relation to the music. I think the most beautiful part of the parada is the coming back and if this is done to allow a pause at that point all the better and it then shows that the follower is contributing more of herself to our dance.

The poster who said that there is always some sort of disconnect here is very correct.

I would have thought there was only a disconnection if the follower does not follow the leaders chest as SP described above.

 

[bordertangoman]

Alex Krebs, as I remember it, teaches (or, has taught) that she can take as long as she wants once that space is opened, and made a joke of being yawning and being bored while waiting for her to complete her step.

the parada is followed by an empanada

 

[ant]

Not exactly a life shattering question

Personally I have found the topic very interesting, so thanks for raising it.

3) The leader leads every aspect of what the follower does, using a combination of his chest as well as using his left hand to move the follower's right hand to lead the motion of her free foot (the embellishments, are actually led).

The few times it has been taught this way in classes I have attended I have not liked it. However I think there is a good use for this, when there is room, I lead the lady to lift her free leg then open the space and see what she does with the situation. It gives me a very good indication if she prefers a Neuvo or Salon type dance to that track.

 

[Angel HI]

I'd be leary, and very careful of that left hand thing. Don't know that I would advocate this.

 

[v22TTC]

Not exactly a life shattering question, but just something I'm curious about. I'm aware of three different philosophies on how the lead and follow are supposed to work when leading the pasada (step over).

1) Once paused, it's completely up to the follower to decide what she will do (she can embellish at will) and how long it will take.

2) The leader only leads (with his chest) when it's time get on with it (for lack of a better word, or the rhythm and timing).

3) The leader leads every aspect of what the follower does, using a combination of his chest as well as using his left hand to move the follower's right hand to lead the motion of her free foot (the embellishments, are actually led).
​

What are your thoughts on the pasada, and how do you typically do it? I mostly go with the second option, although I've tried them all at various times.

I'm glad that this got revisited.

For me, theoretically/ideally 1 all the way! On a floor with no one else on it, she can carry on until the music stops, for me.... But I suspect that I'll never be 100% comfortable with the 'lead/follow' thing (even in its most enlightened form, where the definitions break down completely... the mis-perception tends to remain...), especially as the leader, so it's a way of being as equalitarian as I can be... I mean in an obvious way that pretty much no 'follower' can miss.

I tend to take the long view, so nearly always give at least two opportunities for her to adorn/play during a tune (one early on to allow me to get a better impression of what she prefers)... over time, the women realise that when they're with me they will have plenty of such opportunities over a tune/tanda, so they're less inclined to chuck everything but the kitchen sink in with each opportunity, and it becomes more 'tasteful'/musical each time.

I would never be comfortable with 3 - I would see it as completely defeating the object... though new beginners (or/and pattern-bots) sometimes need helpful nudges along til they get the idea, then it reverts to the 1 default.

In reality it tends to be 1... but macro-responsibilty to other couples trumps micro-responsibility to her (except in keeping her safe), and I'm the one who can see the opening gap between us and the couple in front, so it's up to me to get us moving when consideration requires this; so 2.

And if she's dangerous then no more play for her (though I'll try to contain or aim her excesses safely, before denial).

The pause is usually pretty much necessary, practically, but like all things in TA it is a tool that can be used or not, to best effect musically (with a partner with whom you have a very good rapport).

 

[Peaches]

The few times it has been taught this way in classes I have attended I have not liked it. However I think there is a good use for this, when there is room, I lead the lady to lift her free leg then open the space and see what she does with the situation. It gives me a very good indication if she prefers a Neuvo or Salon type dance to that track.

See, and that would just tick me off. Either make clear your intention to let me play and improvise, if desired. Or lead what you want to lead. Don't go mucking about halfway like that. If you lead me to lift my leg, I'll lead it...but unless you do something to follow that up I'm left just standing there looking like a fool. Nuevo or Salon or Milonguero or whatever would never enter my mind, just...what the f am I standing here like a damn flamingo for?

 

[ant]

See, and that would just tick me off. Either make clear your intention to let me play and improvise, if desired. Or lead what you want to lead. Don't go mucking about halfway like that. If you lead me to lift my leg, I'll lead it...but unless you do something to follow that up I'm left just standing there looking like a fool. Nuevo or Salon or Milonguero or whatever would never enter my mind, just...what the f am I standing here like a damn flamingo for?

The way I would lead when we are there would depend very much on how I feel you have reacted.

 

[newbie]

1) Once paused, it's completely up to the follower to decide what she will do (she can embellish at will) and how long it will take.

2) The leader only leads (with his chest) when it's time get on with it (for lack of a better word, or the rhythm and timing).

3) The leader leads every aspect of what the follower does, using a combination of his chest as well as using his left hand to move the follower's right hand to lead the motion of her free foot (the embellishments, are actually led).

I vote #2

 

[Dave Bailey]

I vote #2

I was playing around with this a little at my practice today, and for me, the answer is "it depends"

If it's a sloooow track ("Tai Chi tango"), with a regular partner and a great connection, every single part of the movement - including lustradas and suchlike - can quite easily be led from the chest / centre.

If it's a fast and furious one, or dancing normally in milongas, I think these are things where the woman usually takes the lead to a point. Let's face it, in Real Life most people don't lead every step anyway - when was the last time you led every discrete step of a giro in a milonga?

 

[Zoopsia59]

Since it's quiet here, I thought I'd ask another question about this. To you, does a pasada (step over) imply a parada (stop or pause)?

What are other's thoughts on this? Does a pasada imply a pause for you? I know I've seen others (although not often), do pasadas without a pause before stepping over.

This is really just a slight variation of the same question, isn't it? Since your chest kept going, you were leading the timing of the stepover. She either expected a pause (and then you would lead the pasada) or she didn't really expect you to lead the pasada at all and is subconsciously expecting to do it in her own time.

I would reiterate that if there is no pause for her to make contact with the leader's leg and realize she has to step over it, then the timing and placement of the leader's leg has to be impeccable. Otherwise it becomes a tripover. It becomes like doing a sacada to the reaching foot instead of the trailing foot just as she's about to transfer some weight to it. Oops... sorry. Sacadas don't work that way.

The stepover has to happen while she is still solid on her standing leg, not in the middle of the weight transfer... .ie: at the beginning of her reach.

Remember that the follower is instructed to keep her free reaching foot in ever so slight contact with the floor. Therefore, she's going to have to purposefully lift it to get over your foot. If there is no pause from you, she has a split second of time to realize she has to raise her foot AFTER she registers the info that your leg is in her path to accomplish this without stopping. And if you think about the construction of people's feet, the top of the foot has formed a hook under your leg which slows down the "getting it over" part. This geometry is not as big a problem in a sacada when her leg that's being displaced is behind her.

I think it's entirely do'able for the pasada to be led without a pause, but I suspect it's an advanced skill to get it working smoothly with someone who is not accustomed to you as a leader or this particualr way of leading it.

I would also point out that the follower's technique needs to be pretty impeccable as well, so that she has not started transfering weight to her reaching foot too soon... that makes the tripping more likely. But keep in mind that since she is to have her weight forward, and she's likely to be wearing heels, the amount of forward reach she has without placing any weight on that foot is: not very much.

I'd also add, that the way most people I've danced with lead the pasada, it's actually the big pivot around (on my right leg after the forward ocho to his right) that clues me in to the fact that I'm probably going to be stepping over his leg on my next step, whether or not there's much pause. And yes, I've stepped over legs that weren't there. But it's better than being tripped.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I detest it when the woman 'takes over' these ops to do whatever crap she feels like, and then tells me that it's her option. ^&$@*(+!!, no it's not! We arrive at that point, and the lady takes off in a highjacked tantrum of stiletto fencing sieges of her surroundings and her partner. :shock: :evil: :headwall:
.

That's why I usually do very little before stepping over unless:

A) His timing or placement has created a Tripover.

B) I really need to pause to get myself sorted out. In fact, this is the FIRST thing I consider. If I'm not on balance and solid with my axis/posture, I fix that while I've got that brief moment of stillness. I don't force in an embellishment when all twisted up, and I don't take time to do one afterwards either.

C) I need to "slow down" the leader because he is rushing things to a point of it being uncomfortable for me physically or very awkward musically.

D) Embellishment seems to fit the dance we are creating together based on things he's been leading.

Notice that embellishment is the LAST consideration.