Things AT Leaders should know

[Heather2007]

Sorry and thanks for debugging my mistakes, I wrote in a hurry and did not check the spelling. It must be espejo and piernazo.

My "debugging" was not deliberate. But it doesn't matter how it is spelled. Rather, dance and feel the word rather than worrying about spelling or saying it.

As for the "puppeteer" and "cement" comments - they're just descriptive Britishisms - nothing necessarily to do with tango. Hey-ho!

 

[opendoor]

... they're just descriptive Britishisms ..

... but useful for one´s vocabulary.


By the way, do you know the spanish expression for V-Frame ? Is it "con luce"?

Many greetings

 

[Light Sleeper]

It was Gavito who said, "The lady in tango should be held as if she were the most precious gift." I copied it, and made a plaque for the studio after some time with him.

FTR, Heather, careful about getting hung up in terminologies. I understand that you were just asking for clarification, but so many of these AT terms are like certain ones in BR...many words for the same thing/s. These 2 terms, in particular, are not that popular.

Well, luckily I'm hopeless with names - I don't think of dance in terms of labels, I've noticed a tendancy for dancers I know to use all manner of labels which aren't strictly true, everything involving a pivot becomes 'an ocho' or 'like an ocho'... if they start speaking in names at me I haven't a clue.. I focus on the individual elements. Also as I don't speak Spanish I find it easier to think of things in english so I think of 'displacement' rather than 'sacada' and I would refer to the said move as just 'a promenade'. It takes me too long to mentally process a label as opposed to the series of elements - I'd rather just have those described to me.

The Gavito quote - lovely isn't it? Nice to hear it's on a plaque in your studio.

 

[Light Sleeper]

the loveliest sack of cement I ever danced with was German and we had a great dance to Tango de Roxanne! She even did one of those crossed legs on the man's thigh leap that you see tango por dos doing.

I'm practicing those! Sometimes I can do them really well - sometimes I lapse into cement mode! Boooof!!

 

[Light Sleeper]

When I'm given a precious gift (a car, a big chocolate cake...) I usually don't press it against my chest.

... I hug my precious to my chest (my car).... but then I'm in love with her!! I'd draw the line at chocolate cake though.....

 

[Light Sleeper]

... but useful for one´s vocabulary.


By the way, do you know the spanish expression for V-Frame ? Is it "con luce"?

Many greetings

I heard an Argentinian teacher refer to it as 'apilado'.

Ragdoll: is a child's toy, a doll made of material and stuffed with kapok (erm, can't think how to describe that) - it's a soft filling anyway - so the ragdoll is floppy and not rigid.

Pupeteer: Man or woman who operates puppets.. can be wooden type dolls operated by strings attached to puppet's head. I think Heather was alluding to the fact that she was pulled everywhere in a rather brusque way with no opportunity to assert herself within the dance.

Hope that helps!

 

[opendoor]

... so the kapok filling of the ragdoll corresponds to the cement in the sack, does it?

Thanks a lot !

 

[Light Sleeper]

... so the kapok filling of the ragdoll corresponds to the cement in the sack, does it?

Thanks a lot !

Ah no - sorry, forgot the cement thing. The cement (I'm interpreting Keiron's sentiment here) refers to a man who leads like he's pulling a sack of cement around (ie no subtlety, he's pulling the lady around like she's a heavy, unwieldy sack) is a bad leader. Bordertangoman said he thought that this was customary in Argentina - to be expected to pull the lady quite strongly with the arms.... Whether true or no, Keiron thought that this was still 'cement dancing' hence the 'Spanish or English - it's still cement' phrase... I am inclined to agree. As a lady I do not find it pleasant to be led in that manner.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Sorry opendoor, I rather foolishly tried to combine the sentiment of the following idioms:

"Like a sack of cement" - very awkward heavy thing that is difficult to move
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" - names do not change the intrinsic beauty of the thing.

Argentina does not contain only wonderful dancers and has its fair share of walking disasters. I have experienced a variety of Argentinian characters in my limited adventures. In all cases, with all styles (even nuevo), they have typically required more powerful leads. That is to say they require very clear signals, and often provide more resistance than your typical European.

In this case I am trying to say that a stronger lead is not directly related to muscular power, but this is the common outcome in those that do not have much finesse to their lead. Likewise the resistance is yielding, and provides dynamic tension, rather than a constant physical strain.

My experience of some people that dance "how they do in BsAs" without ever having been there, is that they have misinterpreted the resistance and apilado to mean blanket force, making them very tiring to dance with.

 

[Gssh]

Re: Sack of cement

In my experience with argentinean followers (and interestingly enough followers who just came back from trips to BA) they indeed seem to go for a somewhat heavier lead - though i wouldn't call it manhandling. It is more provinding a grounded, solid connection to the floor for the leader through her body.

For me this larger degree of resistance feels actually very nice - the connection is more solid, and i feel like i can place her feet to the milimeter where i want to place them, or if she does an adornment i still know exactly where her weight and balance is at any point of time.

It is to me much more trust inspiring than followers who i can't feel when they follow. I have danced with a few followers where i had absolutely no tactile feedback telling me which foot they were on, or how far they were stepping, or anything, and it was deeply disconcerting - i was continously afraid of stepping on their feet. Especially when i try to do sandwiches, or saccadas, or set up off axis turns i prefer if i don't have to look down to check where her feet exactly are.

But as kiero said, there is a huge difference between "providing more resistance allowing for a more dynamic dance" and "hanging on the leader and needing to be moved around". It is in some ways the exact opposite of being heavy. I have no idea how they teach this in argentina, but it is a very distinct feeling. It is in some ways exactly like the standard walking exercise for women - i provide forward pressure, and the leg without weight extends, and extends, and the tension builds till the foot grounds, and as a leader i can feel this as if my own foot had hit the ground, and then the tension transforms into smooth movement of the center. Every beginner class i have been stresses this quality of movement, but i didn't experience what it can feel like for a leader until the time i danced with a friend of mine who just had returned from a 4 week tango vacation. It was really eye opening, and it vanished after her being back here for a while, and now she is as light and responsive as she was before, and a wonderful dancer, but i miss that energy.

Gssh

 

[Angel HI]

Uh-uh. I'm the last person on earth to get hung up on anything. ESPECIALLY in AT. Haven't you noticed - yet?:together:

(and I - um - think - perhaps you meant to address another rather than me as it was they who was "asking for clarification". I merely responded).

Indeed, I have. The reply was actually not directed to you in particular, but meant as a general comment.

 

[opendoor]

Thanks to all of you for theses philosophical insights into ragdolls and sacks !
It reminded me that in my beginnings I heared something like .. you need not weigh me around like a man-of-war ...

concerning my question on V-frame = ´con luce´

.. heard an Argentinian teacher refer to it as 'apilado'

Thought ´apilado´ to be ´frontal´ (Milonguero-like) but I still suppose that ´con luce´ referes to V-frame (Salón-like). Yet, I´m not sure.

 

[Light Sleeper]

Thanks to all of you for theses philosophical insights into ragdolls and sacks !
It reminded me that in my beginnings I heared something like .. you need not weigh me around like a man-of-war ...

concerning my question on V-frame = ´con luce´



Thought ´apilado´ to be ´frontal´ (Milonguero-like) but I still suppose that ´con luce´ referes to V-frame (Salón-like). Yet, I´m not sure.

Ha ha - i think of man-of-war as in Portugese Man-of-War which is a type of jellyfish! Which in turn reminds me of an hilarious Round the Horne sketch!

V frame - Well, as I said in an earlier post - I don't work with labels. To me, the 'v' could refer to an upside-down 'v' meaning milonguero stomach to stomach hold or it could mean the hold where your embrace is closed at one side and open at the other. (where you got your username? like an open door?) If you enjoy learning the Spanish words, then fine but it's not necessary to learning (I find).

I think apilado means 'stacked' and con luce means 'with light'... sorry, don't know the German translation.

 

[Gssh]

concerning my question on V-frame = ´con luce´

afaik "con luz" means "with light" and was used in the sense that the leaders and the followers body are not pressed together, and it describes proper, well mannered, PG-13 tango. I remember vaguely that i read that upper class dance parties enforced propriety on the dancefloor, and would kick out the more barrio dancers who danced sin luz and with cortes and quebradas. Kinda like school dances today .
I would guess that most modern v-frame and salon would be still be considered "sin luz" - i don't think anybody dances tango in a way that would be approved by a 1930's chaperone anymore.

Gssh

 

[kieronneedscake]

Every beginner class i have been stresses this quality of movement, but i didn't experience what it can feel like for a leader until the time i danced with a friend of mine who just had returned from a 4 week tango vacation. It was really eye opening, and it vanished after her being back here for a while, and now she is as light and responsive as she was before, and a wonderful dancer, but i miss that energy.

Gssh

I have felt the same drop-off in myself after just such a tango vacation, albeit in different ways. I believe it to be a social effect rather than one of training. Without the constant need to be a certain way, we have no urge to be like that. In the case of this kind of dynamic resistance, it's really hard to create unless the other person is doing similar. In order to maintain it you need a critical mass of dancers who do it actively in your social circle.

Plus, and this one really ticks me off, nobody ever tells you that you've let it go!