Thoughts about the cross

[Zoopsia59]

I guess my question is, are moves like the cross more naturally suited to "angled" embraces? In a V-embrace, there's a natural default twist between the follower's upper body and her hips / legs. (Her legs are going straight back and her upper body is angled to create the V-shape.)

In my limited experience of V (which I think i've made clear that I'm not as skilled at) the alignment is not as you describe above. The people I see doing it (and what i've done myself) is that the hips are under the shoulders at the same angle to the leader. If the shoulders are at 45* to the leader, then the pelvis is also. The reaching therefore may be directly "back" if back means "parallel to the wall down LOD", but the reach is not perpendicular to the follower's own pelvis... the step becomes at an angle to the hips.

This may be a mistake and may be why I find V awkward... side steps would also therefore be at an angle to the pelvis rather than parallel. However, this is how I've seen it.

 

[Peaches]

In my limited experience of V (which I think i've made clear that I'm not as skilled at) the alignment is not as you describe above. The people I see doing it (and what i've done myself) is that the hips are under the shoulders at the same angle to the leader. If the shoulders are at 45* to the leader, then the pelvis is also. The reaching therefore may be directly "back" if back means "parallel to the wall down LOD", but the reach is not perpendicular to the follower's own pelvis... the step becomes at an angle to the hips.

This may be a mistake and may be why I find V awkward... side steps would also therefore be at an angle to the pelvis rather than parallel. However, this is how I've seen it.

IIRC (it has been a while), I tend to dance it with the a sort of "permanent dissociation" between hips and shoulders. To me, it always felt like my hips were in much the same position, it was just my right shoulder that was opened out a bit. I think. I don't really remember thinking about always stepping at an angle to my hips.

OTOH, after a while if you just get used to sending your leg in whatever direction the leader has indicated, it ceases to really matter much.

 

[bastet]

IIRC (it has been a while), I tend to dance it with the a sort of "permanent dissociation" between hips and shoulders. To me, it always felt like my hips were in much the same position, it was just my right shoulder that was opened out a bit. I think. I don't really remember thinking about always stepping at an angle to my hips.

OTOH, after a while if you just get used to sending your leg in whatever direction the leader has indicated, it ceases to really matter much.

pretty much what I do in that case, esp. WRT the hips. My hips aren't turned at an angle (ie, from hips down we are still parallel) and I just try to go where I'm asked.

Also- in a little V, the leader's shoulder (right upper torso side) is a little towards you too so it is not dissociation as previously described or as would happen if both partners were in a parallel alignment and then the leader turned his torso with the follower matching.

It really isn't comfortable to have one person doing one thing and the other another in the case of V or flat on...which is why I've tried to learn how to adapt as much as possible with people.

WRT crossing, I've never seemed to have a problem with it in either embrace. I can't recall it being more or less difficult in one or the other, probably mostly because of what I said about my hips still being parallel with the leader, it's only my upper body alignment that has changed a little.

 

[AndaBien]

... if you just get used to sending your leg in whatever direction the leader has indicated, it ceases to really matter much.

This is how I think of it. The followers leg/step goes in the same direction that the lead is going in. From where the followers foot is at any moment, it goes in the direction that the lead indicates, and the lead can change in mid-step, altering the direction of the step.

 

[Zoopsia59]

This is how I think of it. The followers leg/step goes in the same direction that the lead is going in. From where the followers foot is at any moment, it goes in the direction that the lead indicates, and the lead can change in mid-step, altering the direction of the step.

Yes, this I agree with.

I meant only that in relation to her own pelvis, the step may not be directly behind her. If her hips are parallel with her shoulders in a V, then a "backstep" wouldn't be behind her pelvis (perpendicular to her hips) It would be sorta "sideways-back".. perpendicular to the leader's shoulders. (assuming he's facing down line of dance)

Basically, whatever the follower's angle is or isn't, if the leader's chest is facing down LOD and he leads her to step down line of dance, then her step is perpendicular to HIM, not necessarily to any part of herself.

 

[bordertangoman]

My limited experience of dancing in V is limited but with one notable exception, it was like dancing with a shopping trolley with wonkey wheels that dont go where you want them to.....

 

[Dave Bailey]

Just the other day, I was dancing with a leader I don't usually dance with. I kept being tripped while doing the cross. This made me wonder if it was because he was not used to the foot path of my cross. I asked him whether he was used to V-embrace. At the time he didn't seem to realize there could be any difference, but agreed to switch to V-embrace.

As soon as we changed to V-embrace, there was no more tripping to my cross, and our dance improved overall. Only then, he realized that V was the hold he always do. (He adapted to my in-line embrace and didn't realize the change at the beginning of our dance.)

That seems to reinforce the way I've been thinking.

I guess the general principle I'm groping towards is that the steps you do are - or should be - highly influenced by the style of embrace.

Of course, that's obvious with some things - it's silly to walk in open embrace, and silly to do most of the "adas" in close - but it looks like the same principle also applies to more nuanced embraces - such as the V-embrace.

 

[LoveTango]

I don't remember from where I heard or read about this:

The reason for a cross has something to do with molinete. The cross can be seeing as a linear (rather than circular) molinete. The feet of the follower go back-side-forward-side.

So I guess if the follower naturally does cross, then it is easier to get her to do molinete?

I found the video to show this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/oscaracasas#p/u/146/p9emHiQVIP0
I really enjoy Oscar's teaching videos.

 

[twnkltoz]

I've never danced in V embrace, but when the cross is led correctly, it feels perfectly natural and easy. I also lead from time to time and have no trouble leading the cross in a perfectly natural fashion.

IME, leaders completely over-think the cross. They make this big movement to get me to do it, then look down to see if it worked (RME). It's really very simple...This is hard to express in writing, but I've shown two people this and use it myself. They were both struggling with leading the cross and after I showed them this, they both said "Oh! That is easy!" and now comfortably, naturally lead it perfectly every time. In any case, I'm not sure I can make it clear without doing it with a follower to think about it first, but I'll give it a try:

Think of what you want the follower to do. Her left foot is free, and you want it to come across her right. That means she needs to move to her right just a little more than she would if she were to bring her feet together. When you step forward on your left foot (you might need to place it an inch further to the left, and that's why I need to go try it, but it'll be a day or two before I can) and then when you bring your right foot to meet it, move your body so that it feels lateral rather than forward so the lady has to do the same thing--and has no choice but to cross. It helps to pull your belly button to your spine a bit to create a sense of space. Your follower should never be wondering whether she should have crossed or not.

 

[AndaBien]

...IME, leaders completely over-think the cross. They make this big movement to get me to do it, then look down to see if it worked (RME). It's really very simple...This is hard to express in writing, but I've shown two people this and use it myself. They were both struggling with leading the cross and after I showed them this, they both said "Oh! That is easy!" and now comfortably, naturally lead it perfectly every time. In any case, I'm not sure I can make it clear without doing it with a follower to think about it first, but I'll give it a try:

Think of what you want the follower to do. Her left foot is free, and you want it to come across her right. That means she needs to move to her right just a little more than she would if she were to bring her feet together - ...

IMO, much of tango teaching is over-explained and over-thought. Yes, it's very easy if you understand what's happening.

I followed this explanation part way, but then I lost it. I do think that thinking about the belly-button is still too complicated.

 

[LoveTango]

I've never danced in V embrace, but when the cross is led correctly, it feels perfectly natural and easy. I also lead from time to time and have no trouble leading the cross in a perfectly natural fashion.

IME, leaders completely over-think the cross. They make this big movement to get me to do it, then look down to see if it worked (RME). It's really very simple...This is hard to express in writing, but I've shown two people this and use it myself. They were both struggling with leading the cross and after I showed them this, they both said "Oh! That is easy!" and now comfortably, naturally lead it perfectly every time. In any case, I'm not sure I can make it clear without doing it with a follower to think about it first, but I'll give it a try:

Think of what you want the follower to do. Her left foot is free, and you want it to come across her right. That means she needs to move to her right just a little more than she would if she were to bring her feet together. When you step forward on your left foot (you might need to place it an inch further to the left, and that's why I need to go try it, but it'll be a day or two before I can) and then when you bring your right foot to meet it, move your body so that it feels lateral rather than forward so the lady has to do the same thing--and has no choice but to cross. It helps to pull your belly button to your spine a bit to create a sense of space. Your follower should never be wondering whether she should have crossed or not.

Yes.