thoughts on why cliques happen

[Naddrin Kentlar]

For the sake of argument, let's assume this. I see a lady, she looks at me, I cabeceo, we start dancing, and it's a great tanda. Such connection, we're both there in the moment, it's one of those tandas. At the end especially after such a moment maybe we decide to socialize a little, we both pat each other on our backs praising each other. After that as we speak with each other I learn that she's an abusive mother in my view, and she realizes that I'm the dumbest person on earth for voting for the X political figure she literally hates. What now ? How do you think that the next tanda we dance will be? The real answer is that most likely won't ever be another tanda.

Yet, we'll be denying ourselves great moments, and even if we manage to dance again it will require some tremendous effort from both of us to be able to keep the other thoughts away.

This is a bit taken to the extreme to make a point. But usually things happen more slowly and in insidious ways. Like drops in a glass, bad thoughts are bound to start piling up, and the quality of dance will eventually degrade to the point of no dance at all. What she once saw as a warm and confident embrace, now she perceives as an arrogant and selfish posture.

SO ?, how cliques happen. Humans for a very valid reason in our evolutionary process, have flocked into tribes and groups. Won't go into it in detail on why exactly happens, but everyone can see it around them. My football team, my country, my race, my church. ... my tango school.

We are all subjective creatures, and our reality is created by our senses and experiences. Within the bounds of our perceived reality we all try to be good people. And whenever we do something that can be perceived as 'bad', at the core it's to right a wrong that was done to us.

Yet, within our group we have greater tolerance for the 'bad' behavior for two reasons that come in my mind right now. One is that we know the greater context and the bad behavior is justified. And the second is because it's happening within the group and we're more tolerant with the people within the group and our brain will try to shield us from perceiving reality due to a simple reason: "I am a good person, therefore people in my group can't be bad, or if they're bad they need to be helped, not shunned"

I'm not really sure why, we do tend to have little understanding for people outside our group.

And so in the end in order to have a good dance, you'll eventually be able to have it in two scenarios. Dance within your group, or dance with people you don't know and they don't know you.

 

[TTanguero]

There has been a practical example of that in London, with one particular dancer coming out as a Brexit supporter. As you might imagine, the tango scene in London is incredibly international, so that's not exactly a popular view in the city. A number of followers no longer dance with the person concerned.

But I think the more usual scenario is no more mysterious than people like to dance with people they like, and whose dance they enjoy. My regular dance partners are mostly women I've met in group classes, or been introduced to by my gf (who has been dancing for many years). It's not that I'm in any way unwilling to dance with new people – I was mostly doing so at a milonga yesterday as there were few familiar faces – but we'll obviously gravitate to those we know and like.

 

[Rabbit]

I don't see why we can't be friends, dance, love people with different political views... it is better to understand how the "other side" sees things than to live in an echo chamber.

On the other hand, the cliques associated with particular dance schools or styles don't understand tango at all outside their narrow viewpoint and are best avoided.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

The way to deal with the opening scenario Naddrin Kentlar brings up is simple - talk only about things related to dancing and Tango. The Milonga is strictly for dancing and that's what I focus on.
I have friends who are politically and otherwise on the other side, yet we love each other and dance together for years - with some over 25years.

 

[Naddrin Kentlar]

The way to deal with the opening scenario Naddrin Kentlar brings up is simple - talk only about things related to dancing and Tango. The Milonga is strictly for dancing and that's what I focus on.
I have friends who are politically and otherwise on the other side, yet we love each other and dance together for years - with some over 25years.

That you're right. And that is simple when the subject to avoid is obvious. The problem comes with the little small things that are related to tango .. where you are tempted to believe that the way to do things is how you're thought in your school, because you will try to fit in within your tribe, and feel the need to defend your tribe's way of doing things. And even if you are training yourself to be more open minded and accept other viewpoints, doesn't mean that your partners will be able to do that. And slowly your experience with that person will degrade.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

That you're right. And that is simple when the subject to avoid is obvious. The problem comes with the little small things that are related to tango .. where you are tempted to believe that the way to do things is how you're thought in your school, because you will try to fit in within your tribe, and feel the need to defend your tribe's way of doing things. And even if you are training yourself to be more open minded and accept other viewpoints, doesn't mean that your partners will be able to do that. And slowly your experience with that person will degrade.

I absolutely agree with your thoughts on that issue. My conclusion - I don't have to be friends with everybody on the planet. If people are narrow-minded, angry or argumentative, I avoid them. Life is too short to deal with this nonsense.

 

[Brummbaer]

That you're right. And that is simple when the subject to avoid is obvious. The problem comes with the little small things that are related to tango .. where you are tempted to believe that the way to do things is how you're thought in your school, because you will try to fit in within your tribe, and feel the need to defend your tribe's way of doing things. And even if you are training yourself to be more open minded and accept other viewpoints, doesn't mean that your partners will be able to do that. And slowly your experience with that person will degrade.

Avoid even the small things associated with tango - just nod, smile, and back away. The clique forms over any disagreement. Social AT is prone to that since there's no absolute standard as a reference and we like to think we're dancing the "authentic" style.

 

[JournalInTime]

Avoid even the small things associated with tango - just nod, smile, and back away. The clique forms over any disagreement. Social AT is prone to that since there's no absolute standard as a reference and we like to think we're dancing the "authentic" style.

Funny but true! A couple of snobby people have picked me apart for dancing "too nuevo" because I happen to like to include volcadas, colgadas, piernazos, etc. in my social dance, space permitting. So last night at a milonga, an elderly woman from BsAs tells me, "You dance just like a real milonguero from when I was young, not like these other people." I just accept the compliments, ignore the criticisms, and keep on doin' what I'm doin'. It means I don't belong to any of the cliques, but that doesn't seem to affect my ability to find dance partners.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

Funny but true! A couple of snobby people have picked me apart for dancing "too nuevo" because I happen to like to include volcadas, colgadas, piernazos, etc. in my social dance, space permitting. So last night at a milonga, an elderly woman from BsAs tells me, "You dance just like a real milonguero from when I was young, not like these other people." I just accept the compliments, ignore the criticisms, and keep on doin' what I'm doin'. It means I don't belong to any of the cliques, but that doesn't seem to affect my ability to find dance partners.

A few comments:

A better description of those that picked on you would be purist, rather than snobby. Being a purist myself, I do not do anything that has to do with Nuevo. Yet under no circumstances I criticize others.

The "elderly woman" may have reacted to your frame and embrace, not necessarily your steps/figures. She may have also wanted to have you ask her again. (How old is Elderly?)

It's not easy to ignore criticism. But criticism doesn't belong on the dancing floor (the Milonga). Shame on those that practice it.

You belong to the non-alligned clique - the right place to be

Your ability to find partners has to do with your good lead, good embrace and with self-confidence. Of course politeness and good hygiene help.

 

[Bailango]

I don't see why we can't be friends, dance, love people with different political views... it is better to understand how the "other side" sees things than to live in an echo chamber.

In this day and age the political identities are associated with most important personal values. We could have different political views but could share values as humans or normal citizens. We may have same goals but see different paths of getting there. But when political identities pits my values against yours, it changes the entire dynamics. I think that is what is happening.

Some times extreme examples are best illustrators for making a point. It is often said that when one person brings up nazis or hitler, the debate ends. Let's say we are in early 50s. At dance we encounter a person who still firmly believes in nazi ideology, enthusiastically participated in the final solution, still believes it was the right thing and thinks that the wrong side won. But is otherwise pleasant personality. What would be your reaction?

 

[Bailango]

To the original topic and the title of the thread. Without going into the anthropological reasoning of needing to be part of a group that we all understand. I will say most cliques emerge. They don't get formed by design. Sometimes cliques are perception of other dancers and sometimes they are real. In Tango they tend to be a bit more real.

I don't have problem with cliques. It is with the individual attitude of person in the clique and how it affects their dance behavior. There are and will be people who are a part of real clique yet that doesn't impact their dance/social behavior. They will still dance with many others, interact with you one on one, may be are advance dancer but no hang ups. And there are the opposite types.

If being in a clique changes your attitude that is a negative. Most people don't pause to introspect if they are being exclusionary or emitting those signals. It takes a more self aware person to be cognizant of such because most it is sub conscious. Most people do like people that exhibit inclusionary personna.

 

[Brummbaer]

In this day and age the political identities are associated with most important personal values. We could have different political views but could share values as humans or normal citizens. We may have same goals but see different paths of getting there. But when political identities pits my values against yours, it changes the entire dynamics. I think that is what is happening.

Some times extreme examples are best illustrators for making a point. It is often said that when one person brings up nazis or hitler, the debate ends. Let's say we are in early 50s. At dance we encounter a person who still firmly believes in nazi ideology, enthusiastically participated in the final solution, still believes it was the right thing and thinks that the wrong side won. But is otherwise pleasant personahlity. What would be your reaction?

I think @ttanguero has illustrated that, to a degree, with the Brexit example in the UK, not to mention internal divides within the UK. You have to have been there to understand the toxic nature of the divide and consequences. OK, it's not on a scale of participating in the final solution, but it's bad - and some would argue that the example you pose is literally as relevant today. Best not to even know - keep calm and dance on - then go and hold your head in your hands.

 

[Brummbaer]

I will say most cliques emerge. They don't get formed by design. Sometimes cliques are perception of other dancers and sometimes they are real. In Tango they tend to be a bit more real.

I'd disagree - sometimes they are by design, like the clique which becomes the purist breakaway group dancing the "true" tango, with milongas by invite only. Substitute "nuevo" for "true" depending on your particular preference.

Sometimes this is justified

 

[Bailango]

I think @ttanguero has illustrated that, to a degree, with the Brexit example in the UK, not to mention internal divides within the UK. You have to have been there to understand the toxic nature of the divide and consequences.

It is the same on this side of Atlantic. When opposing ideology becomes something concrete that one thinks is hurting where it hurts the most, things become personal. That hurt could be real or perceived. It is direct result of political polarization and corrosive nature of the political debate. The truth is often somewhere in the middle. But polarization is never about the middle.

 

[Bailango]

I'd disagree - sometimes they are by design, like the clique which becomes the purist breakaway group dancing the "true" tango, with milongas by invite only. Substitute "nuevo" for "true" depending on your particular preference.

Sometimes this is justified

This a good example of whether a clique is real or perceived one. Nothing wrong in wanting or liking to dance a certain way. Nothing wrong in wanting to dance with others of similar preferences. As long as the attitude is not of "this is the true religion". Then we are venturing into a 'cult' territory than 'clique'

Milongas and festivals by invite only are not my cup of tea. I don't think they should have a place in the community. I don't think they are conducive in larger picture. I think there is a thin line between a private event and a public event that is invite only. That is different from milongas open to all orienting in whatever direction whether by design or happenstance.