To dance with a complete beginner

[Ron Obvious]

This is mostly directed to the lads out there, but replies from women are also welcome (I just think that if it might not be possible to dance with a man that knows nothing of dancing): do you think it's possible to be so good in leading, that one can dance salsa with any novice follower, and now I mean with someone dragged just from the street?

We have a salsa club on weekends, the clientel of which is a mixture of salsa dancers and normal people. I think the bar wants it due to economical reasons (normal people support the salsa people by drinking a lot). The music and the athmosphere is really good, so I want to dance a lot. However, there are always more men then than females, which forces me to also ask people that have no knowledge of dancing. This is sometimes really demanding as a lead, since some followers tend to ignore whatever signs I make. What to do, more force? I want to dance, not herd cattle.

 

[leftfeetnyc]

DON'T EVER EVER FORCE!!!

Sorry to yell, but as a dancer it sucks to be forced...I'm sure it's even worse as a non-dancer to have someone pushing you through moves.

If you want to dance every song and can't abide sitting out a bit but instead chose to ask non-dancers...don't expect to get a great dance or plan on sticking to actuall moves. You're going to have to wing it and jsut move to the music. If she follows, great...if she does her own thing, let her. She's just there to have a good time and probable doesn't have a deep affection for doing the dance properly...she just wants to move.

It is possible for a follower to dance with a non-dancer lead just like it is for a dancer to grab a non-dancer follow. In both cases the dance is more..winging it than actual moves and patterns.

 

[TemptressToo]

I find being given a quick mini-lesson right at that moment helps. Teach her the basic and get those steps in her head. (you of course can be dancing in time to the music) Then perhaps teach her an underarm turn.

Who knows, spending just a tiny amount of time on your newbie partner may ignite her desire to learn more and pronto...someone your would WANT to dance with on a regular basis.

 

[devane]

It is possible to lead a complete beginner, but it depends on the person.
When a guy first learns to dance he has too much on his plate to worry about leading. What happens then when he moves on from beginners stage he never bothers to learn to lead. He has been sycronising his steps with the girl.
I learned to lead by going back to the beginners and intermediate classes (for free they always need guys). They are always happy to dance with me as a guy starting out is useless to the girl at this stage. They love having a guy who already knows the moves, leading them through the sequences, all they have to do is follow.
To be fair girls have to learn to follow too. They too have been sycronising their steps with the guy. I have struggled with some advanced girls but with others who have never seen the sequence do it perfectly when I lead them.
I find it nicer to dance with a good follower who is a beginner or intermediate than a bad advanced one.
Especially ones who back lead, but that's another story.

 

[redhead]

...a mixture of salsa dancers and normal people.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[devane]

...a mixture of salsa dancers and normal people.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

We're not normal anymore.
I call "normal people" civilians. :wink:

 

[Pacion]

Ron, I feel for you. Try mixing your dances so that you have some good dances at least. But, you may also have to look at trying to help "spread the word" by just doing some basic, basic steps and gentle moves which may border on a lot of free styling (but nothing too flashy) and simple turns. You may then get a following, find that those women become enthusiastic about dancing, become advanced dancers and if they are honourable personalities, you will have an instant harem, oops, I meant pool of dancers to choose from. :wink:

For myself, I have done this with some guys - more to encourage than to have a harem :wink: and after a few weeks, they have become really decent dancers! I have yet to get a no from them when I ask because they remember my enthusiasm and patience at a time when they were still struggling and vice versa. :lol:

(The only time I have received a no from some of the guys I have come up the ranks with, is when they have gone on to be a "demi-God" in which case, they suddenly forget the follows who invested time in them. No biggy. I just sit back and heckle from the sides... "hey Mister Big Shot! I remember when you didn't know the clave from a bass cleft! :twisted: )

 

[Sagitta]

It is all relative. One person asks about being forced and another shouts out never! The amount of firmness on one's lead can vary a great deal. I have discovered that sometimes when I manipulate followers, almost forcing them the beginners prefer that to simply firm leading. Within the same song the reponse to how I vary my lead is patently obvious. Even among good dancers many prefer more strength than I want to exert. Take it from me the ligher the lead I can give the happier I am.


As one dances more with beginners one figures out how to put the non-dancer at ease and even how much salsa one can do with a particular individual. Again, for some moving to the music may be all the you can do, but for others one might even be able to do even more then simply the basic. It depends on the individual.

 

[tsb]

it IS possible to influence your partner's footwork without using a lot of force even if she is a complete beginner - i have been able to have many beginner partners perform underarm turns & cross-body leads cleanly by the end of the first song.

i can't be comprehensive using this medium but the following should help:

- you will need to explain the timing of the basic & emphasize small steps;
- emphasize the idea that a step is a shift of weight - even if you don't change position on the floor;

(the point is she needs to understand that her feet need to keep moving - and as you guide the movements of her body, hopefully her feet will remain beneath her body - if this does not occur or there are other basic posture/balance issues, there will be little point in doing anything other than a simple basic for the rest of the song)

as a leader - you need to is understand exactly what your partner's footwork should be to help guide them through - and also understand what their tendencies will be.

examples:

- once a partner understands that you are inviting them to do an underarm turn (usually by raising their right arm), the most common mistake made is that instead of their left foot coming straight forward, they will anticipate the turn and step to their right. you will need to guide them (in open position, keep their left hand low and as they step on '5' bring their left hand forward towards a target outside your right hip - in closed position bring the left side of her body TOWARDS you and start to guide the turn after she shifts her weight completely onto her left foot.

- on a cross body lead - the typical tendencies include not waiting for count 5 to start across & moving on count 4 - to keep her in place, you can place her RIGHT hand on her LEFT hip & then place your hand on top of her hand. that will lock her center of gravity in place. then to guide her through (better in closed position to start), keep her right hand around her hip level (to prohbit the tendency to try and turn underneath it) and gently lead her forward (this will generally influence her to take a larger step). other tendencies will be that she: will not keep her shoulders perpendicular to the slot as she travels; not pivot & close on '7'. in closed position, you can shift your right hand so that the heel of your hand can to influence the trunk of her body both to keep her shoulders square as well as to get her to pivot and close on count '7' (flipping your wrist to assist her in the pivot & get her to turn & face you).

hopefully will give you some insight into how it is possible to guide any partner without using much force. all my partners tell me that my lead is clear, but also very smooth and extremely light.

unfortunately, a lot of instructors don't teach this kind of stuff at all. i think the person who taught me this has some self-defense training & was able to incorporate this into what he teaches.

 

[leftfeetnyc]

It is all relative. One person asks about being forced and another shouts out never! The amount of firmness on one's lead can vary a great deal. I have discovered that sometimes when I manipulate followers, almost forcing them the beginners prefer that to simply firm leading. Within the same song the reponse to how I vary my lead is patently obvious. Even among good dancers many prefer more strength than I want to exert. Take it from me the ligher the lead I can give the happier I am.

The word force just implies yanked arms to me, and I think to many other followers who have been in that situation of a leader who is going to put you threw a move no matter what. Every follow has danced with the guy who attempts to lead something and any miss-interpertation is greated with force through the move repleatedly. It's very aggrivating, and probably more so for a non-dancer just trying things out.

As for heaviness or lightness of lead, that is all relative and I would agree that beginner dancers tend to like a heavier and firmer lead. When I first started dancing I did as the heavy and firm leads seemed more clear. Now that I've improved and grown in my dancing, I much prefer a light lead.

 

[Ron Obvious]

...a mixture of salsa dancers and normal people.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

We're not normal anymore.
I call "normal people" civilians. :wink:

But the term "civilians" implies we are somehow military.

We are, in a sense, not normal, because the statistical "norm" of the population doesn't dance salsa. In other aspects we are (not necessarily) unnormal.

 

[Ron Obvious]

it IS possible to influence your partner's footwork without using a lot of force even if she is a complete beginner - i have been able to have many beginner partners perform underarm turns & cross-body leads cleanly by the end of the first song.

i can't be comprehensive using this medium but the following should help:

- you will need to explain the timing of the basic & emphasize small steps;
- emphasize the idea that a step is a shift of weight - even if you don't change position on the floor;

Yes, this was what I meant. Sometimes it feels quite hopeless with beginners, but of course I don't expect miracles when I ask them to dance, and I also know that I won't enjoy the dance that much either, but if I like the song I still prefer to dance than to stand aside.

It's not that I like using force either, but sometimes you have to. And it's relative, I won't injure somebody of course, and it's really more using force in preventing her to lead me than leading her with force.

 

[Lucretia]

However, there are always more men then than females

:shock: Where do you live - I must move to your place :lol:

I look at dances with newbies as an investment. I invest my time to nourish a new talent. A talent that perhaps just in a few more months will be a much better dancer than myself. Or perhaps just an "ordinary" dancer that I can enjoy dancing with. That day I get my investment back.

/luc

 

[Vince A]

We are, in a sense, not normal, because the statistical "norm" of the population doesn't dance salsa. In other aspects we are (not necessarily) unnormal.

Although the other side of the coin, is that we are all normal, except when we a "forced" into doing something that rubs us raw. Exacerbating this even further, when we a forced to do something, we become intimidated, and have a tendency to be less complacent in any given forced situation. Within time, we become hostile, and push back.

Men who claim they can lead anyone to dance well are not giving their partners enough credit.

Name one male leader who is a World Champion, and let them pick one woman follower off of the street. Now let him take her immediately to a World Championship event, and let him lead her through his routine.

Think he'll still be a World Champion?

 

[gte692h]

We have a salsa club on weekends, the clientel of which is a mixture of salsa dancers and normal people. I think the bar wants it due to economical reasons (normal people support the salsa people by drinking a lot). The music and the athmosphere is really good, so I want to dance a lot. However, there are always more men then than females, which forces me to also ask people that have no knowledge of dancing. This is sometimes really demanding as a lead, since some followers tend to ignore whatever signs I make. What to do, more force? I want to dance, not herd cattle.

the 'civilians' with no dance experience at all usually refuse by saying, 'no thanks, i'm here to watch'. For them, i never insist on trying to show them anything.
There are some other girls who say, 'I'm sorry, but i've never tried this before', which is usually when i say, 'okay, if you're willing to, we can try', and sometimes they say yes.

while dancing with beginners, i just tell them, 'okay, when i move forward, you move back, and vice versa.' i don't bother telling them anything more. I just do the basic, and a crossbody, and maybe a underarm turn. sometimes sidebreaks. they usually seem to follow my leads on these. its not perfect, but usually, the dance is decent.

usually, i never insist or try to force a beginner to dance by telling them that i can teach them.