Top Teacher Awards

[MaggieMoves]

A whole lot of assumptions going on with regards to professionals. I always get a kick out reading all the amateur/student replies.

By all means, enlighten us then from the instructors/organizers perspective. Those kind of responses don't help anyone.

 

[flightco]

A whole lot of assumptions going on with regards to professionals. I always get a kick out reading all the amateur/student replies.

You get a kick out of it, really? I get a kick out of the tone of your comment, you say absolutely nothing but insinuate a superiority to those paying the bills. Sounds like some of the comments might be hitting a little too close to home. I would imagine most people who can afford to competitively ballroom dance are already professionals in their own right, in a different field, but surely know how a business operates. Why don't you enlighten us as to why we are so wrong for questioning how "our" money is being spent?

 

[stash]

Do you ask Macy's how your money gets spent after you shop there? Do you ask Starbucks? How about your Doctor? Or the bank that handles your Car Payment?

I'm not saying you shouldn't know where your money is going. But 1) this is a hobby for most of us. Why should we earn money for something that is FUN for us. That's why we all have other jobs. 2) Did you get a huge cash bonus when you bought your car? Or when you bought a house? Maybe not the greatest examples but just because you spent a lot of money doesn't mean you should win something.

I don't begrudge people for making a living for what they love to do. And we may be upset with Jump'N'Jive's comments. But a lot of us are making a lot of assumptions about how Studios and Pros work behind close doors and how money is made in this business. It's like people make a lot of assumptions on what and how fast Cancer Researchers should be doing, but unless you are in that field working everyday you can't know.

If Top Teacher really makes you that upset, maybe have a discussion with your pro. Ask their side of the story. Discussing this with other Am's isn't going to solve anything, because the story is one sided. And to me, it seems like people are blowing off the responses from the pros here who are trying to explain why things are the way they are from their prospective.

 

[IndyLady]

I think the problem is the lack of transparency and willingness to tell it like it is. The pros who have posted here have been helpful and offered enlightening information... however, many instructors/pros (as usual, ymmv) are not so eager to offer up these types of frank, honest explanations of how and why the system works the way it does. And when awards are vaguely and cryptically named things like "Top Teacher" and "Top Student", it obscures what criteria are really being rewarded. There's an emperor's new clothes, don't ask don't tell, hush hush type atmosphere that is often prevalent. Most people don't question their Macy's or Starbucks purchase because it's probably safe to assume that you're paying for a relatively straightforward combination of production costs, labor costs, etc. If you are a "Gold Star" member at SB, everyone knows, and there's no shame in it, that it's because you buy a boatload of coffee there. But IME, there seems to be an expectation of "we don't talk about that" - sort of the same tsk tsk as if we talked openly about private bodily functions - surrounding these awards. Although fwiw, I'm not aware of any instructors at my studios winning or vying for Top Teacher at any external competitions.

 

[MaggieMoves]

Do you ask Macy's how your money gets spent after you shop there? Do you ask Starbucks? How about your Doctor? Or the bank that handles your Car Payment?

I'm playing devil's advocate here: If you read yearly reports on many of these public companies, you actually get a great indication of how the money is spent even with a basic financial analysis.

That same simple analysis can be done on dance competitions. So let's say a student pays for x-entries, and a portion of that money that paid for those entries goes for a "top teacher award." It should be then justifiable to say that "top teacher" should be calculated in a transparent manner. Often they're just given positioning without any real indication of how it was calculated.

As much as I love to compete, I do get tired of the "shut up and pay" mentality that some instructors have. It's the reason why I dropped my last one after 2 years and we had fantastic chemistry together.

 

[wooh]

But IME, there seems to be an expectation of "we don't talk about that" - sort of the same tsk tsk as if we talked openly about private bodily functions - surrounding these awards.

Ok, all you ams that want a complete breakdown of EVERYWHERE the pro money is being spent, why don't you show yours first. (Which isn't quite true, as MANY pros have explained costs on this forum time and time again, and yet are still considered rip off artists because how dare they charge more than we want to pay.)
So all you Indy, sbrn, et al., tell us exactly where all the money in your industry goes to. Every dollar of your paycheck, tell us EXACTLY what you do to earn it. Because the people that pay that money want to know, and apparently DESERVE to know. No reason to be secretive!

 

[wooh]

I'm playing devil's advocate here: If you read yearly reports on many of these public companies, you actually get a great indication of how the money is spent even with a basic financial analysis.

Publicly traded companies. People have a right to know because they're selling shares to the public. You have no right to know where money is going when the company isn't publicly traded. It's not based on "where do you spend your money" but instead "where do you invest your money." And you're buying a service from the dance industry, however much time, money and energy you "invest." You get a service back, not profits.

 

[flightco]

There is not a lot to say to your response that hasn't already been said so I will keep this brief and try not to repeat myself.
Maybe not the greatest examples but just because you spent a lot of money doesn't mean you should win something
I don't believe I ever said I should win money, I was talking about how the incentives for the teachers can and does lead some teachers to push their students beyond their financial abilities but because of the emotion of it all and trust in their teacher, they spend money they don't have. I have seen this happen to people I know and have had it unsuccessfully tired on me.
I don't begrudge people for making a living for what they love to do Nor do I, if it paid better and I were a better dancer, I cannot think of a career I would rather have. And we may be upset with Jump'N'Jive's comments. True, I thought they were very arrogant for daring to question the all mighty pro. But a lot of us are making a lot of assumptions about how Studios and Pros work behind close doors and how money is made in this business In relation to teachers pushing their students to pay what they cannot afford for the teachers own financial gain, well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how money is made, you would have to be a starry eyed dreamer not to see it.

If Top Teacher really makes you that upset, maybe have a discussion with your pro
I am not upset, it is a discussion on a dance discussion board and I am giving my opinion. Because I disagree with something I must be upset? I have made a personal decision not to pursue Pro/AM competition because having participated in one and attended several others with friends who were competing (I just decided not to complete this sentence because regardless of how I feel, there are many here who love the comps and I don't want to say anything more disparaging than I already have) so simply put, as in all your examples above about how to spend money, I agree with you, once you spend it, it is no longer your money and the other party can spend/disperse it any way they choose, but until then it is my money and my decision as to why I will never again spend it on a comp is simply that, my decision and opinion.(never is a big word, I should probably say most likely never). Since I have participated and spent my money, I feel free to discuss it in this forum and will not be shut down simply because you or others disagree. As to discussing it with my Pro, she feels the same way about the way comps are run and you would have to persuade her to participate in one.

 

[flightco]

Ok, all you ams that want a complete breakdown of EVERYWHERE the pro money is being spent, why don't you show yours first. (Which isn't quite true, as MANY pros have explained costs on this forum time and time again, and yet are still considered rip off artists because how dare they charge more than we want to pay.)
So all you Indy, sbrn, et al., tell us exactly where all the money in your industry goes to. Every dollar of your paycheck, tell us EXACTLY what you do to earn it. Because the people that pay that money want to know, and apparently DESERVE to know. No reason to be secretive!

Yawn; You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
I am not talking about the cost of dance lessons, that is right out front and my decision to pay or not, (as a matter of fact, I did say that most people who think lessons cost too much have never considered the thousands of hours a pro puts into learning their trade) nor did anyone say all dance pros are rip off artists. I, and many others, are talking about the incentive to push a student beyond their financial ability for the pros own gain and how the top teacher award encourages this. It has and does happen, I and many others have seen it with our own eyes.

Lets not forget ballroom dancing became a regulated industry in many states because studios were taking advantage of some of their students. (not trying to start a new conversation, I have no idea about the extent of this, but I do know a FA studio owner was telling me about them coming under regulation because of this).

 

[IndyLady]

So all you Indy, sbrn, et al., tell us exactly where all the money in your industry goes to. Every dollar of your paycheck, tell us EXACTLY what you do to earn it. Because the people that pay that money want to know, and apparently DESERVE to know. No reason to be secretive!

Funny you should ask. I'm an actuary, so we actually do have extensive knowledge on where the money is coming in and out on the various products our company sells. Perhaps this is why I apply so much scrutiny to my own finances.

If I was paid by the task, as I assume most dance pros are (lessons/group classes taught, # entries at a comp, etc) that would be interesting information, however I am salaried so it's one blob of money for getting s*** done. A more fitting analogy would be the agent who actually sells the insurance... fyi, most agents receive anywhere from 50-150% of the first year premium as commission, and 2-20% of renewal commission (depends on a various factors, so these are very general ranges). There may also be production bonuses depending on the distribution structure and other agreements.

FWIW, in case it is not clear, because I think you are mushing a bunch of us together, I am not arguing to know the exact amounts earned for each and every task (though I would certainly not object to receiving that info). My issue is, and has always been, any resistance to admitting what the awards are really for, which is mainly # entries and to a lesser extent placements. As I stated before, many on this board are pretty matter of fact about it, but for some of us, that seems to be a forbidden topic that we don't talk about.

 

[raindance]

I think one reason am students have opinions (including some negative) about top teacher awards is that these awards are given out on Saturday night with big fanfare. Students pay lots to compete (fair enough), and then during the prime time evening show, they get to sit around for several minutes while being asked to clap for each of the teachers with highest numbers of entries being given dollar awards.

Meanwhile the student may have experienced some of the negative sides of teachers vying for these awards, such as being pushed to do more entries (for more $$) to help their teacher have a shot at these awards. Or they may have been a student that spent their small number of entries dancing against other students who are clearly out of category for the sole purpose of trying to help their teacher win a top teacher award (e.g. the silver scholarship winning student that did every heat in every possible age group from newcomer to full silver or even open gold, and which is a big discouragement and an eye opener in a bad way for a true newcomer.)

I am not saying top teacher awards are all bad, I think the top teacher awards are good for the dance business in some ways - they help comps attract the teachers who can bring a lot of entries. This helps make comps viable from what I gather. But I don't think it should be shocking that pro/am students have mixed feelings about these awards.

 

[stash]

FWIW, in case it is not clear, because I think you are mushing a bunch of us together, I am not arguing to know the exact amounts earned for each and every task (though I would certainly not object to receiving that info). My issue is, and has always been, any resistance to admitting what the awards are really for, which is mainly # entries and to a lesser extent placements. As I stated before, many on this board are pretty matter of fact about it, but for some of us, that seems to be a forbidden topic that we don't talk about.

I was always under that impression that it was for number of entries for the most part. I'm not a pro/am dancer, but I don't think it's ever been a surprise about what's that about.

 

[raindance]

I, and many others, are talking about the incentive to push a student beyond their financial ability for the pros own gain and how the top teacher award encourages this. It has and does happen, I and many others have seen it with their own eyes.
.

I am not saying I like it - but that is pretty normal behavior for salespeople regardless of industry. The guy selling you your car (or any other product where the salesperson is rewarded for amount of sales) has an incentive to push customers beyond their financial ability for their own gain, and they do it all the time. I'm sure the degree of it varies, as do their feelings about it (do they feel bad, are there limits they won't push past, etc).

Part of the shock to the system for student dancers is the point in time where you realize that the teachers and many others in the industry are in sales. (For better or worse, finding a studio and teacher with a sales system that you like or can tolerate - e.g. lower pressure, etc - is part of the journey of a student dancer.) In a way, top teacher awards are good because they make this pretty clear - they aren't trying to hide the reward for high sales.

 

[IndyLady]

I was always under that impression that it was for number of entries for the most part. I'm not a pro/am dancer, but I don't think it's ever been a surprise about what's that about.

I don't disagree... and it may not have been a surprise for you, but in my neck of the woods it's not something that's openly discussed or acknowledged. I didn't figure it out right away, and when I finally did state it matter of factly to an instructor ("it's really # entries, right?"), the response wasn't "well, duh, you didn't realize that?", it was more of a sheepish "yeah, that's really what it is." Based on conversations I've had with other students, it's not immediately apparent to everyone. And I think there's an incentive to keep it that way, because it could certainly seem a bit crass to push a student to try to earn "Top Student" award by stating, listen, you need to be the competitor with the most entries.

 

[IndyLady]

Part of the shock to the system for student dancers is the point in time where you realize that the teachers and many others in the industry are in sales.

This. I have been asked numerous times if/when I am going to become a teacher. I tell people that I don't want to take a pay cut to be in sales.