Top Teacher Awards

[JudeMorrigan]

Agreed entirely, 33 minutes isn't all that much. Most just like to build it up more than it is, though.

But it does feel longer than that.

It's an interesting hypothetical to me as an amateur. Certainly I've had competition days with less dancing than that that pretty much crushed me. But ... I'm very certain that a fair bit of why days like that take as much out of me as they do is adrenaline. While I don't imagine being on the floor with their student is ever completely routine for most pros, I don't imagine it's quite the same thing either. I certainly have an immense amount of respect for the physical stamina represented by the pros who do a bazillion heats, but I'm not sure that comparing the numbers directly with what a student does is entirely apples to apples.

 

[Dancing Irishman]

It's an interesting hypothetical to me as an amateur. Certainly I've had competition days with less dancing than that that pretty much crushed me. But ... I'm very certain that a fair bit of why days like that take as much out of me as they do is adrenaline. While I don't imagine being on the floor with their student is ever completely routine for most pros, I don't imagine it's quite the same thing either. I certainly have an immense amount of respect for the physical stamina represented by the pros who do a bazillion heats, but I'm not sure that comparing the numbers directly with what a student does is entirely apples to apples.

Too true Jude. 100 heats of newcomer / bronze for a Pro definitely isn't the same as 100 of open / gold (the higher level just demands more from them). I've done really long days in collegiate (equivalent of 32-35 single dance events, but all with numerous callbacks leading to around 3-4 hours of floor time in total) and it was actually helpful to get very little break time for the adrenaline to totally subside. For me, at least, revving up the engine (so to speak) takes more out of me than just keeping it going, so having to turn myself "on" 6 or 7 times during the day is way more draining than dancing the same number (or even more) events nearly back to back with 10-20 minutes in between. Which actually makes me curious how I'd do in a Blackpool-like comp where a single event has a first round that runs for nearly two hours (like the open pro latin five-dance).

 

[IndyLady]

but why?...I mean, the pro has a financial incentive, but it never amounts to much for the student.....

This. I like 50 because it's just enough (5-10 is deeply unsatisfying, not even warmed up) but not overkill.

I've generally been to small comps so perhaps this is n/a at the much larger events, but the folks who do a bazillion heats inevitably wind up being the only people on the floor for a long stretch of entries... at which point the crowd thins out because you can only watch the same amalgamations with interest so many times in a given timeframe. If you're uncontested and have no audience, the only thing left is that you're proving your stamina to yourself?

 

[MaggieMoves]

500 is just insane, IMO. 50 is a comfortable number I think most of us can agree on with no drop in quality of dancing. I have the physical conditioning to do 100... but there comes a point like others infer that it stops becoming enjoyable, especially if you're only competing against yourself.

Whatever makes them happy, let them spend their money on. There are other things that could be far worse, I guess. I'm not sure I could sit there and watch them the whole time though.

 

[MaggieMoves]

So that would apply to teachers too?

Depends on the teacher to be truthful. A few pros I've seen could hardly handle 50, and forget about 100 in a given day. These numbers definitely are more dependent on the individual couple. Just because someone looks like they're in great shape... yet smokes like a chimney out the back between heats generally is not a good sign.

 

[MaggieMoves]

Again, how is that relative to the pro and not to the amateur?

People are people... and if a pro can do 200 and not die then I assume a student can too. And if we have super-teachers that can and REGULARLY do 500 quality heats, then we can have students that do it too.

I'm not really indicating a difference between the pro or the amateur here. Pardon the confusion, but I was agreeing with you.

 

[rels77]

Again, how is that relative to the pro and not to the amateur?

People are people... and if a pro can do 200 and not die then I assume a student can too. And if we have super-teachers that can and REGULARLY do 500 quality heats, then we can have students that do it too.

I think someone earlier hit the nail on the head in the sense that professionals know better how to pace themselves and are often dancing down to the am's level, whereas the am is usually performing the most challenging stuff they can currently handle. That involves a much different level of mental stamina. Additionally, at least at my baby bronze level, I know my pro is not at all nervous, phased, etc... whereas I often get a bit hopped up on adrenaline, end of "working too hard", etc. Pros know how to conserve energy because they are used to it, they know working too hard does not actually look better on the floor and are not nervous the way the am is.

So to me, it's not about the physical stamina, it's the mind stuff that makes 200 heats for a pro and 200 heats for an amateur different. My pro will use a quarter of the energy than I will - which of course says I need to do more work off the comp floor to get to that place, but I don't know many ams who are there. Every person I've seen who does those 250 plus heats (because there are more than a couple), I have often noticed they are less consistent - one rhythm comp will look great, because rhythm was first ; next comp it will look rougher, because maybe they did smooth plus country plus club first. Or 8 am looks great, but 150 heats and 8 hours later... ouch, it's not as clean.

 

[debmc]

For pros.. 400 heats spread out over 4 days....means 100 heats per day. 100 heats per day at roughly 1min 10 seconds per heat is a about 2 hours dancing time. At roughly $40 per heat ( from what I hear is the average rate), the pro is making $4,000 for 2 hours of work. Not bad! I'm not saying it isn't hard but surely we can all agree that $4000 for 2 hours is a pretty good chunk of change...plus of course adding the top teacher bonus on top of that!

Hey, I'm not saying you shouldn't charge that...charge whatever you can get is the philosophy of pro am, but at least understand that $4,000 for 2 hours of work is a pretty good compensation.

And I know I will hear the argument that the pro is in the ballroom all day. Ok....$4,000 per day is still a pretty good chunk of change.

But as many have mentioned... Students choose to do this because we love ProAm, and it's what the cost is, but to expect anyone other than the uber wealthy to think that these rates are reasonable, may be a bit naive.

Still...no one is forcing us to do it......so even tho some have said it is a whining thread I think of it as a way for students to simply say...wow, this is ridiculously expensive, but yet I am compelled to do it even if it means making enormous sacrifices in every avenue of my life...but yes, sometimes it's nice to vent that proam costs are crazy, and perhaps in venting and sharing we will be able to make more financially savvy rather than emotional decisions when the next comp comes around.

 

[rels77]

I thought I was done for awhile but this one struck a chord and I couldn't agree more but I think it also made me realize something as I was thinking about how the company I work for treats customers. When we are in a meeting without customers we get awards, bonus checks, get to walk up on stage, etc., but when a customer is present, it is all about them and we would never consider handing out a bonus check to one of our reps in front of a customer. What I just realized is we, the students, are not the organizers customer, the Pro is. I don't like this since the students are the ones paying the money but I understand it. As long as students are willing to keep forking out the bucks for a chance to live the dream I don't see this changing.

This is the crux of it, I think. Bonuses, sales incentives, etc... they should not be done in the arena where the ultimate customer is, as that should be the focus. I raise money for a living in nonprofits. I used to be in sales, so these kinds of things do not phase me. Hell, I used to work on cruise ships telling people where to shop ashore and then would walk from store to store collecting cash incentives based on my sales. What does sort of annoy me in this world is that in both the for profit and the nonprofit world, the person writing the check holds the power. When a big donor says jump, I say how high. When I was in sales, the customer was always right. Hell, I worked in TV and the network got what they wanted because they wrote the check. Here, however, the person who writes the check is often not the one with any power. They are beholden to an increasingly antiquated system where the pros are the ones who hold the keys to everything: communication, the information, etc. Which might have worked in a land before the internet, but is increasing harder to explain now. (that's a whole other thread) So the people who write the check are often not given the opportunity to utilize the power that the consumer will often have in contractor situations because it's a captive market.

 

[sbrnsmith]

I couldn't have said it better myself than the above 2 posts- just because we are all buying, does not mean we are not allowed to 'whine'....personally, I don't see it as whining....we also work hard and we choose to spend our money where we want to...as long as there is demand, there is supply...

Edited to add- $4000 over 12 hours is still $333 per hour....not many of us can say we make that much, PLUS, top teacher bonus on top of it and all expenses paid...

 

[jump'n'jive]

400 heats is spread out over 3-4 days. That's roughly $1000 per day and then over 12 hours per day. That factors out to be $83 per hour.

Out of that $4,000 subtract what we lose not teaching. I average 6 lessons a day at $90 per lesson. Factor in that I have expenses to go to a comp. 4 days of dog boarding, 4 days of our nanny and her expenses if she come with, dry cleaning and tailoring etc. oh yeah and I'm going to need costumes to wear with you while I'm there.

 

[rels77]

Larinda, I totally get that... the last thing anyone wants is some sort of shady back alley deal. I think there's probably a happy medium. I was sort of agreeing with the other poster who just said that by doing a big thing at the event, it makes the teachers seem like customer, which isn't really the case. that goes to my point about how that might have been more the case years back, when all info was sent to studios, students only heard about the comps the teachers wanted them to, etc. etc. now that line's all blurry.

It's like I had a conversation with my pro about how I'd like to be added to comp email lists and how crazy it is that they don't insist that I am. (Much of my professional work goes to special event fundraising and how attendee data and communication is of #1 importance) He said he would never want that, as he doesn't want organizers to communicate to me other than through him. I reminded him that now thanks to Facebook, etc., it's happening already.

Teachers as go-betweens feels like a dying paradigm and the top teacher stuff feels a bit to me like part of it.

 

[stash]

I couldn't have said it better myself than the above 2 posts- just because we are all buying, does not mean we are not allowed to 'whine'....personally, I don't see it as whining....we also work hard and we choose to spend our money where we want to...as long as there is demand, there is supply...

Edited to add- $4000 over 12 hours is still $333 per hour....not many of us can say we make that much, PLUS, top teacher bonus on top of it and all expenses paid...

But how many pros are actually making that much at a competition? It's like when people baulk at wedding photographer prices, $3-4k for 8 hours? But it's not just those 8hrs at the wedding, its the hours on days on weeks of editing the photos.

There's so much that we take for granted of the pros that it may seem like they are making way more than they actually are.

 

[DL]

but at least understand that $4,000 for 2 hours of work is a pretty good compensation.

And I know I will hear the argument that the pro is in the ballroom all day. Ok....$4,000 per day is still a pretty good chunk of change.

A pro's compensation may be structured in such a way that $4k of it is associated with 2h (or 1d) of work, but it's not as if every 2h (or 1d) of that pro's time is compensated with $4k, 8h/d, 5d/w, 50w/y. Honestly, let's not speak as if pros typically make $4k/d == $20k/w == $1M/y (with a 5d week and 50w year).

BTW, my salaried employment comes with medical benefits, 401(k) plan (and match), and other compensation perqs. Not so for most pros, as I understand things.

 

[debmc]

400 heats is spread out over 3-4 days. That's roughly $1000 per day and then over 12 hours per day. That factors out to be $83 per hour.

Out of that $4,000 subtract what we lose not teaching. I average 6 lessons a day at $90 per lesson. Factor in that I have expenses to go to a comp. 4 days of dog boarding, 4 days of our nanny and her expenses if she come with, dry cleaning and tailoring etc. oh yeah and I'm going to need costumes to wear with you while I'm there.

The only way 400 heats over 4 days ( or 100 heats per day) adds up to $1000 per day is if you are charging $10 per heat to compete, which would be significantly below the current norm.

Most pros also have hotel and air expenses covered so no cost there.

I can't include your lost lesson cost because you are making money at a comp. I would assume when you are teaching lessons you don't account for lost comp time costs. Income is income, whether it is from lessons or a comp.

Dog boarding costs? I'm not sure I know of any profession that covers that!

I believe you should charge what you feel you are worth and if your students can afford it, that's great, but I just wanted to clearly state what the fees are of the average 100 heat per day pro is. It's a nice amount of money! It's not to say you shouldn't get it...it's just to say what it is.