Trying to demystify the whole "magic connection/tango bliss" topic (sry this is long)

[JohnEm]

At the moment, this only happens by accident - for example, I realise that I've been dancing for a track but I've not been thinking about steps, it all "just works". If I knew how it "just works", I'd do it all the time...

Wouldn't we all!

But of course, it's the just doing it, doing it well that is, that is it.

On a similar note, there's a very good post from Sallycat here - "the gift". Worth reading I think.

Yes it definitely is. I really must try and dance with her next time.

I'm not in to all the zen stuff that sometimes is talked about so I'll
give you a different comparison which might mean more to leaders.

I once raced cars, short circuit (quarter mile) oval racing mainly on the dirt,
sometimes concrete, sometimes mixed. Don't laugh - more similarities
than you might think including always turning one way as per LoD.
You have to race against other cars/drivers in close proximity and
constrained by banks and/or armco which which you don't want to hit.
Races are roughly 10/12 minutes long - ooh, just about a Tanda's length!

So here I am, with others driving a mechanical, definitely soulless, object.
Mechanical it may be, but different cars, different surfaces, different conditions
all require the driver to feel and tune in to the situation through the car's
movement and responses to inputs - steering, throttle, brakes. If we raced fast,
close, maybe rubbing but not bashing so generally respectful of the other guy's
space, at the end of the race I sometimes got that feeling of wondering how was it
that it was so special, so at one, so connected and in the zone with the car. And
yet sometimes I wondered afterwards was it really was me driving, almost surreal.

Maybe that's Tango too but the car of course isn't an inanimate
mechanical object but a living breathing female who willingly has entrusted
10 minutes of her life to you. And if both partners feel anywhere near the way
I've sometimes felt from an exhilarating car race, no wonder it's addictive.

And like David, I've also had the occasional wonderful Tango experience.

no I have nothing to post in this thread... I am just a technique dancer.....

I don't believe a word of it . . . .

 

[bordertangoman]

I don't believe a word of it . . . .

"I have it on good authority" ( to quote Toulose Lautrec)
If this connection is so important then I must tell you its easier with blues dancing than tango....

 

[JohnEm]

"I have it on good authority" ( to quote Toulose Lautrec)
If this connection is so important then I must tell you its easier with blues dancing than tango....

I'm no blues dancer so cannot comment much except
that I've done the occasional class with Simon Selman
teaching a tango influenced blues. Strangely I find
it all a bit too sleazy.

Maybe you find the music more accessible? Or maybe those
people who dance blues know right from the start that a lot
of body contact is the name of the game. Help me here!

However when talking about Tango connection, currently
it is too elusive. Meaning that not many partners - men
and women - will commit all of themselves to the embrace.
Even many of those who are happy to connect at the chest
don't connect strongly. Some are confused by the necessity
to have control of their balance, some run away, some just
don't have the confidence or, in the case of the man,
he doesn't project it.

So you see (and feel) people who remain upright and, of course,
as many teachers teach that it's not surprising that dancers
believe that is Tango. But for me it's tango diluted.

I think the teacher motivation may be to get people dancing tango
in an accessible way as the connection some of us seek depends
on physical attributes that need to be developed over time. But
the downside is that many dancers may never progress to nirvana.

And then of course we get into moves. Moves are the antithesis
of the sort of connection being discussed (there are other connections)
and I suspect we're nearer blues again, being natural movement
to the music rather than pre-set moves, but within a Tango embrace.

 

[gregolam]

In short, practise to be the best you can, the best technique,
the clearest lead, think movement not moves until you have
to think consciously no more. It takes time, so allow yourself time.

Then you can concentrate only on your partner and the music
and whatever you do is influenced by them and them alone.
In other words feel as if you dance Tango as you do in club - naturally.

You've now done your part, the rest is up to her and you aren't
in control of her, only of yourself. It is a dance of two halves.

In my view you (gregolam) are thinking, and maybe worrying, too much.

Haha I think you guys are misreading my tone, I am actually not in the least bit worried or frustrated with my dancing. I love dancing and I always have fun even when I am not satisfied with how I have danced.

My personality is just the type where I need to analyze everything beforehand, I love letting go but only after I have sufficiently prepared myself. I do this with alot of things, its what I do at work for my company, so its just natural for me to have to break things down.

Now when peaches said I might as well analyze sex, I have to say that women complain in equal measure about a great many things that men just dont understand when it comes to what makes women work. Then they turn around and either explain it in women speak, or just plain not explain it at all. Some women joke about men needing maps of womens anatomy for the purposes of sex. Why do you think so many women go to clubs with just their friends and all dance around. Sure they WANT to dance with guys, but alot of time guys just don't know what it is that the ladies want and so they will be lucky if they can get a ten second dance before the girl dances away in the direction of her friends.

Basically women want a little of everything, in dance as well as in life, and they want men to be able to know what they want and give it to them with authority (not aggressiveness) without them having to say what it is straight out. Most men would love nothing more than to do this better but are a little hazy about the whole "how to do it" part. I thoroughly enjoy doing this in my dance, I truly do, but in technical dances this whole thing seems a little ill defined to me. I know women would like to keep it mystical and mysterious because that just sounds better, but as a man and an aspiring lead I am compelled to try to understand the needs of my partner a little better so that I can in turn do a better job providing it with ease.

Now to what Angel and JohnEm said, that I should not forget myself as well, and that I am overthinking, only seeing half the picture, etc. That isn't true either. I understand that there are actually many other parts of the dance that are just important. It is just that this one in particular seems a little less explored, and is the topic which is most immediate to my interests. Everything else is pretty well documented and just requires practice, and I can do all of that on my own time. Again I am not worrying at all, it is just my nature in general to want to understand things.

Again though, almost all of the responses here are from other guys. I am more curious about whether or not the followers think I have laid down a solid set of ideas on the matter. I am also quite aware that even with all of this there is no such thing as a guarentee, like Peaches said sometimes you just can't get the world out of your head, and I know that one of the boons of club dancing is that when that happens, a girl just goes and takes a shot or two, checks the world at the bar, and comes back to dance. People say 'just focus on your partner' or 'just listen to her' or 'dance for her' and then don't really get into what that means.

 

[JohnEm]

My personality is just the type where I need to analyze everything beforehand, I love letting go but only after I have sufficiently prepared myself. I do this with alot of things, its what I do at work for my company, so its just natural for me to have to break things down.

You are not alone.

Now when peaches said I might as well analyze sex, I have to say that women complain in equal measure about a great many things that men just dont understand when it comes to what makes women work. Then they turn around and either explain it in women speak, or just plain not explain it at all. Some women joke about men needing maps of womens anatomy for the purposes of sex. Why do you think so many women go to clubs with just their friends and all dance around. Sure they WANT to dance with guys, but alot of time guys just don't know what it is that the ladies want and so they will be lucky if they can get a ten second dance before the girl dances away in the direction of her friends.

Basically women want a little of everything, in dance as well as in life, and they want men to be able to know what they want and give it to them with authority (not aggressiveness) without them having to say what it is straight out. Most men would love nothing more than to do this better but are a little hazy about the whole "how to do it" part. I thoroughly enjoy doing this in my dance, I truly do, but in technical dances this whole thing seems a little ill defined to me. I know women would like to keep it mystical and mysterious because that just sounds better, but as a man and an aspiring lead I am compelled to try to understand the needs of my partner a little better so that I can in turn do a better job providing it with ease.

You say all this and then ask for an explanation from the ladies?

My point about the car was you can have a sort of connected
oneness with an inanimate object under the right circumstances.
Doing your part well, naturally, will encourage your partner to do
hers well - and hopefully both of you will get that moment of bliss.

I'm quitting this one now. I have an inanimate object to mend.

 

[gregolam]

You are not alone.




You say all this and then ask for an explanation from the ladies?

My point about the car was you can have a sort of connected
oneness with an inanimate object under the right circumstances.
Doing your part well, naturally, will encourage your partner to do
hers well - and hopefully both of you will get that moment of bliss.

I'm quitting this one now. I have an inanimate object to mend.

Haha, and it's true, this is why most guys call their cars or their dogs their best friends. Theyre a helluva lot less complicated than women, and particularly less demanding. Women aren't inanimate objects though. In a club some women very naturally and obviously want to go along with my own rhythm, others if i try to force my own rhythm i can tell its going a bit against her grain, and maybe the girl still has fun but it is automatically taking her out of that trance. It's much much harder to tell in Tango because the followers arent always moving to the music, they are waiting for cues from the leaders, but I am sure that the underlying principle is still there even if its far more subtle.

Im not really asking for an explanation, I already proposed one i just wanted to see whether or not it holds any weight. Hard work isn't enough for me, I have to first understand the entire picture so that I can be sure that the work I am choosing to do is the best way to move myself towards my personal goals. All teachers, all exercises, all practice sessions, are not created equal and I just want to make sure that I don't spend the next year practicing only to become a different kind of dancer than I intended.

 

[Peaches]

Now when peaches said I might as well analyze sex, I have to say that women complain in equal measure about a great many things that men just dont understand when it comes to what makes women work. Then they turn around and either explain it in women speak, or just plain not explain it at all. Some women joke about men needing maps of womens anatomy for the purposes of sex. Why do you think so many women go to clubs with just their friends and all dance around. Sure they WANT to dance with guys, but alot of time guys just don't know what it is that the ladies want and so they will be lucky if they can get a ten second dance before the girl dances away in the direction of her friends.

Basically women want a little of everything, in dance as well as in life, and they want men to be able to know what they want and give it to them with authority (not aggressiveness) without them having to say what it is straight out. Most men would love nothing more than to do this better but are a little hazy about the whole "how to do it" part. I thoroughly enjoy doing this in my dance, I truly do, but in technical dances this whole thing seems a little ill defined to me. I know women would like to keep it mystical and mysterious because that just sounds better, but as a man and an aspiring lead I am compelled to try to understand the needs of my partner a little better so that I can in turn do a better job providing it with ease.

Again though, almost all of the responses here are from other guys. I am more curious about whether or not the followers think I have laid down a solid set of ideas on the matter. I am also quite aware that even with all of this there is no such thing as a guarentee, like Peaches said sometimes you just can't get the world out of your head, and I know that one of the boons of club dancing is that when that happens, a girl just goes and takes a shot or two, checks the world at the bar, and comes back to dance. People say 'just focus on your partner' or 'just listen to her' or 'dance for her' and then don't really get into what that means.

Well, if you're going to trash us as a whole, why should we bother...really?

My point wrt the sex analogy is that you can analyze it, and we can provide diagrams and road maps and how-to manuals and spell out everything exactly how and what and when we want/need...and none of it is a lie...but sometimes bliss just doesn't happen. As with sex, so with tango. Nobody's fault, no one concrete reason, just...life being quirky.

You want an answer? Yes, you have laid down a solid set of ideas on the matter. Now...practice and become a good leader (technically and musically)...and you stand a much better chance of bliss happening. Is it mysterious? Yes, pretty much. Can I predict when it will happen? No, not at all. Can I describe it? Er...sort of. But these things you're wondering about (what does it mean to "listen to your partner" or "dance for your partner") will probably become more evident once you've got more experience. Is that the answer you wanted to get, or that's most helpful? No, admittedly not. But it's the only answer I can really give you.

As a female...who has always been pretty clear about spelling out what I want and what I need, sometimes to a point that disturbs who I'm with...and has absolutely no use for mysteriousness in relationships.

 

[gregolam]

Well, if you're going to trash us as a whole, why should we bother...really?

My point wrt the sex analogy is that you can analyze it, and we can provide diagrams and road maps and how-to manuals and spell out everything exactly how and what and when we want/need...and none of it is a lie...but sometimes bliss just doesn't happen. As with sex, so with tango. Nobody's fault, no one concrete reason, just...life being quirky.

You want an answer? Yes, you have laid down a solid set of ideas on the matter. Now...practice and become a good leader (technically and musically)...and you stand a much better chance of bliss happening. Is it mysterious? Yes, pretty much. Can I predict when it will happen? No, not at all. Can I describe it? Er...sort of. But these things you're wondering about (what does it mean to "listen to your partner" or "dance for your partner") will probably become more evident once you've got more experience. Is that the answer you wanted to get, or that's most helpful? No, admittedly not. But it's the only answer I can really give you.

As a female...who has always been pretty clear about spelling out what I want and what I need, sometimes to a point that disturbs who I'm with...and has absolutely no use for mysteriousness in relationships.

Alright I think I should quit this topic while I am ahead. I really didn't mean to trash anybody at all, if it sounded like I was it was completely unintentional, and my apologies to anyone I offended. I didn't mean that anyone was intentionally not explaining it, I just meant that in general there is a basic disconnect, and that the topic was still coming off as misty to me.

I thought I had a eureka moment this weekend in connecting how I normally dance to Tango dancing, and I won't lie, I was really excited about it. I've been trying to get into dancing for years and I am finally getting a real taste for it. Maybe in haste I came on here to talk about it, but my intention was not to sound like a jerk or make everyone roll their eyes. I have always just come on here to try to understand a topic better.

Again, I was just excited about feeling like I finally had connected some dots, and perhaps hastily came on here and was not careful with how i was wording my post. I really was just trying to say "hey, i think this is right and will help my Tango. What do you guys think?"

I guess I already got my answer though so I'll just back off with this post and again apologize if I unintentionally offended any of you. You've all been extremely helpful to me in the past and I wouldn't knowingly insult any of you.

 

[Peaches]

Alright I think I should quit this topic while I am ahead. I really didn't mean to trash anybody at all, if it sounded like I was it was completely unintentional, and my apologies to anyone I offended. I didn't mean that anyone was intentionally not explaining it, I just meant that in general there is a basic disconnect, and that the topic was still coming off as misty to me.

I thought I had a eureka moment this weekend in connecting how I normally dance to Tango dancing, and I won't lie, I was really excited about it. I've been trying to get into dancing for years and I am finally getting a real taste for it. Maybe in haste I came on here to talk about it, but my intention was not to sound like a jerk or make everyone roll their eyes. I have always just come on here to try to understand a topic better.

Again, I was just excited about feeling like I finally had connected some dots, and perhaps hastily came on here and was not careful with how i was wording my post. I really was just trying to say "hey, i think this is right and will help my Tango. What do you guys think?"

I guess I already got my answer though so I'll just back off with this post and again apologize if I unintentionally offended any of you. You've all been extremely helpful to me in the past and I wouldn't knowingly insult any of you.

I know you weren't being insulting and, speaking only for myself, I wasn't offended. Just pointing out that...despite your intentions...you're making some pretty broad generalizations.

Don't back off the thread. It's a good thing to wonder about. I just don't know how much we can help you...it is kind of mysterious. But if you want to wonder, then ponder away!

 

[gregolam]

Well the reason I actually came on here was because I had a few guy friends with me while we were out, who are all really great guys. However the next day when I was talking to them about the dancing from the night before, I realised that there were some really huge misunderstandings going on. Also my girlfriend had been out of town and went to a club on her own too, and was telling me about all of the ridiculous things that the guys were doing there. Of course I had seen it all before myself and always laughed about it.

I know that some of it doesn't apply to Tango, but for the purposes of what I enjoy doing, I realised that even in Tango there are some rather basic things that, while they ARE being communicated, aren't always being understood. Like JohnEm was pointing out, theres a reason that sometimes guys would just rather work on their cars.

I know there were some broad generalizations made by me, but unfortunately I made them because I do see those generalizations being perpetuated. I didn't mean that ALL women don't explain things to us, I know not everyone is quite as forthcoming as you, and believe me its *******ing, but rather that sometimes women explain things, and men have trouble interpreting those things.

I for one, live to inspire those passions in my dance partners, and believe it or not it isn't all THAT mysterious to me. I am just now trying to see if I can apply it to Tango because lets face it, in about ten years it's going to be really creepy if I am still going to clubs doing the kind of dancing I do now. Tango though I can take with me well into the years to come.

And thanks, you said I was kinda on the money, and I think thats about the only answer I was looking for. I don't at all expect to be able to get my followers to that tango trance every single time, but with the right direction (which I think I have), I think most of my partners will be able to have much more enjoyable dances overall.

PS: Sorry for being so verbose on these boards, absolutely none of my friends are dance enthusiasts like me. Most of them are shocked when they realise I love it so much. So if I have anything to discuss, I can either do it here or keep it to myself.

 

[bordertangoman]

Haha I

Now when peaches said I might as well analyze sex, I have to say that women complain in equal measure about a great many things that men just dont understand when it comes to what makes women work. Then they turn around and either explain it in women speak, or just plain not explain it at all. Some women joke about men needing maps of womens anatomy for the purposes of sex. Why do you think so many women go to clubs with just their friends and all dance around. Sure they WANT to dance with guys, but alot of time guys just don't know what it is that the ladies want and so they will be lucky if they can get a ten second dance before the girl dances away in the direction of her friends.

Basically women want a little of everything, in dance as well as in life, and they want men to be able to know what they want and give it to them with authority (not aggressiveness) without them having to say what it is straight out. Most men would love nothing more than to do this better but are a little hazy about the whole "how to do it" part. I thoroughly enjoy doing this in my dance, I truly do, but in technical dances this whole thing seems a little ill defined to me. I know women would like to keep it mystical and mysterious because that just sounds better, but as a man and an aspiring lead I am compelled to try to understand the needs of my partner a little better so that I can in turn do a better job providing it with ease.

Now to what Angel and JohnEm said, that I should not forget myself as well, and that I am overthinking, only seeing half the picture, etc. That isn't true either. I understand that there are actually many other parts of the dance that are just important. It is just that this one in particular seems a little less explored, and is the topic which is most immediate to my interests. Everything else is pretty well documented and just requires practice, and I can do all of that on my own time. Again I am not worrying at all, it is just my nature in general to want to understand things.

Again though, almost all of the responses here are from other guys. I am more curious about whether or not the followers think I have laid down a solid set of ideas on the matter. I am also quite aware that even with all of this there is no such thing as a guarentee, like Peaches said sometimes you just can't get the world out of your head, and I know that one of the boons of club dancing is that when that happens, a girl just goes and takes a shot or two, checks the world at the bar, and comes back to dance. People say 'just focus on your partner' or 'just listen to her' or 'dance for her' and then don't really get into what that means.

I dont think Any of this has anything to do with connection and is likely to prevent it happening; for the same reasons that women dont want sensitive caring men for partners; they want masculinity first,not all this BS about knowing what they want.

the best dances I have ( from feedback) is when I go with the music and forget about my partner; she comes along for the ride - or she doesnt.

My experience of blues hasnt been sleazy.......well no more than tango..its just the women who dance blues I find to be more musical than lady tango dancers; they are into the music and into moving to it so in many ways the lead dissolves.

 

[gregolam]

I dont think Any of this has anything to do with connection and is likely to prevent it happening; for the same reasons that women dont want sensitive caring men for partners; they want masculinity first,not all this BS about knowing what they want.

the best dances I have ( from feedback) is when I go with the music and forget about my partner; she comes along for the ride - or she doesnt.

My experience of blues hasnt been sleazy.......well no more than tango..its just the women who dance blues I find to be more musical than lady tango dancers; they are into the music and into moving to it so in many ways the lead dissolves.

Well, I don't really appear sensitive at all, don't get the impression that I am walking around the dance floor with a rose in my mouth, looking longingly into womens eyes. Thats pretty prissy, I'm not walking around the place like Richard Gere here.

All that stuff I was talking about I meant to be very subtle, and almost subconcious on my part. It would have to be second nature so that certain adjustments could be made depending on the follower. I agree that when you stop thinking you have your best dances hands down, my point was that, if I could get all of what I was saying to be second nature in TANGO, like it is in the much simpler dances I do normally, then it would most likely make me consistently much better to dance with.

Masculinity doesn't mean ignoring what the woman wants and forcing her to do what you want. I know what you mean when you say they don't want girly men, but that certainly isnt the persona I give off to them. Just trust me on that one. I am sensitive to the point where I try to quickly read a few things off my partners, and then I give them that dance with authority and confidence, but I don't dip and swing and spin every girl around unless I can tell that they want that. I do believe there is a balance that can be, and should be struck between masculinity and sensitivity, the two are often thought of as being mutually exclusive but I don't think that to be the case.

 

[AndaBien]

... my point was that, if I could get all of what I was saying to be second nature in TANGO, like it is in the much simpler dances I do normally, then it would most likely make me consistently much better to dance with.

I find that my best dances are reliably the simplest dances. When I try to get fancy, it detracts from the pleasure of the dance. I can put the most nuance, subtlety and expression into the most basic of steps. Complicated or difficult moves are counter productive to that effort.

 

[outdoorman1234]

Someone mentioned blues and tango earlier. I'm still somewhat of a struggling beginner at tango after a year and a half but dance blues (and swing) a lot. Started with those years ago.

I'm still waiting for tango bliss and am afraid it may never happen. I figure mostly because I still don't really connect with tango music; there's some I like OK but can't say any of it grabs me like blues music does. There are a number of us who will dance some tango at the blues dances, and I enjoy this a heck of a lot more, and the followers I dance both with say I'm much better (or at least they can tell I'm getting into the dance more) at blues rather than milongas.

So maybe feeling the music is the most important part.

Larry

 

[gregolam]

Someone mentioned blues and tango earlier. I'm still somewhat of a struggling beginner at tango after a year and a half but dance blues (and swing) a lot. Started with those years ago.

I'm still waiting for tango bliss and am afraid it may never happen. I figure mostly because I still don't really connect with tango music; there's some I like OK but can't say any of it grabs me like blues music does. There are a number of us who will dance some tango at the blues dances, and I enjoy this a heck of a lot more, and the followers I dance both with say I'm much better (or at least they can tell I'm getting into the dance more) at blues rather than milongas.

So maybe feeling the music is the most important part.

Larry

It definitely is, I won't say you can't do it in Tango, but the few times I have had it happen were aided quite a bit by a song that just sent both of our heads swimming. Not that you can't do it in Tango, just maybe it won't happen until someone throws on a song that just hits you in the straight in the head.

Im new to Tango too and I have the same frustration: trying to transfer those same experiences from our other dances. If you dont like most of the tango music though I think itll just be a bit tougher.