Unwanted tuition

[Alora]

Hi there

I’m learning ballroom and go to lessons as much as I can.

I started dancing years ago with a permanent psrtner but he moved abroad so I stopped but have gone back this past year. I was lucky with my dance partner as he was quiet and concentrated on his dancing.

At first I lacked confidence but my dancing skills are gradually coming back with the help of private lessons. As more women dance than men some of the schools I go to use senior dancers (usually men who’ve been dancing for a while) to dance the single ladies just to help the teachers out.

At first I was grateful for a partner, however temporary, but I found these guys tried to ‘help’ by telling me my steps or pointing out my mistakes or worst, stopping and going through my steps with me. I found this very embarrassing but bore it with a smile and accepted their corrections. These guys are not teachers but there to help out as there are more single women than men.

I’m not sure how to handle this because I’m sure the helping leads mean well but it’s distracting and knocks my confidence with a running commentary as I we dance round the floor. I’ve debated whether to tell the teachers but I don’t want to appear rude. I’ve told the leads that I would rather try and work things out my self but they don’t like it.

I know it must be boring dancing with follows who are beginnners but for me being constantly corrected by every lead I dance with is demoralising.

Anyone else have this problem?

 

[David_In_CA]

Is this during the class or during the social? Are they officially helpers, or just filling in empty partner positions?

If it's during the social or if they're not officially helpers, they (probably) shouldn't be giving instruction. But if it's during class and they are official helpers, it might be appropriate.

I would ask the instructors about it. It's not rude to ask what the expected behavior should be.

 

[Greybeard]

Agree with David.

 

[Alora]

Thank you I’ll have a chat with the teachers

 

[opendoor]

Hi there..

Hi Alora..

..these guys tried to ‘help’ by telling me my steps or pointing out my mistakes or worst, stopping and going through my steps with me. I found this very embarrassing..

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you. When I (leader) started dancing 30 years ago, I had no money for group classes, let alone privates. I learned by dancing with experienced ladies at socials. I will be grateful for their comments, their feedback, their teaching, their corrections for the rest of my life!
You are annoyed about the behavior of those senior dancers because you mistake them for substitute dance partners, which they definitely are not. Just reframe them as a welcome gift!

 

[Alora]

Hello Open door

Thsnk you for your comment very much appreciated.

Can I say something in my defence?

I’m sorry but I didn’t say I was annoyed but that I felt embarrassed and uncomfortable by constant corrections by Al of the senior dancers and being stoped mid dance to correct. as you know practice is very important and I felt I needed a partner to practice with and drill what I had learnt in the lessons. Yes I agree comments, feedback and teaching is very important but practice is more necesaary, I didn’t say I was annoyed by the behaviour of the senior dancers because I was and am still very grateful for their help and support.

I’m learning to go to lessons on my own and and adapting to new partners after having a permanent dance partner. I’m very grateful for the senior dancers help but came here for advice because it wasn’t working for me because I learn in a different way,

As you know we all learnt in different ways and I’m not so good at verbal instruction and would rather ‘see and do’ and practice to get it right and a willing partner to practice with is a bonus.

As for private lessons I’m sorry that you couldn’t afford lessons or privates Opendoor but, as you say that was 30 years ago when you were just starting out msybce? I’m much older and have the time and finances to do what I want now. What’s wrong with that?

 

[opendoor]

..Can I say something in my defence?

We are just exchanging experiences. We don't have to argue or defend ourselves. Please excuse me if my comment was too straightforward.

..didn’t say I was annoyed but that I felt embarrassed and uncomfortable...

Excuse my insinuation. But here on DF there are a lot of complaints about pseudo-teaching on the floor and I can't stand hearing them anymore. I may have read too much into your post and reacted allergically.

..I needed a partner to practice with and drill what I had learnt in the lessons.

That means I was right that you were hoping for something different.

..I’m very grateful for the senior dancers help but came here for advice because it wasn’t working for me because I learn in a different way..

It looks like a communication problem to me. My suggestion is to formulate your expectations of senior dancers more clearly and even more sharply: Just say, I don't want to dance, I just want to practice this routine with you on a continuous loop. Give feedback not in between.

Now David's comment comes into play. The character and format of the dancing (socials, lessons, guided practice, free practice time..) is important. Maybe you should attend free practice times with a senior dancer, instead. Do not mix the formats.

 

[Pryn]

@Alora, you are not alone.

As Opendoor said this is a prolific topic here on DanceForums. As you explore more threads, you will find so many posts regarding dance-splaining, lead-plaining, mansplaining...and just as many varying responses/opinions about it and who/where/why it's appropriate vs not - as there are ways to describe the phenomenon itself.

I find it helps to remember that this is your dance journey. You get to shape it with who/where you take lessons and who you dance with as well as the feedback you exchange about how you learn best.

It can feel demoralizing or embarrassing when receiving constant critique, especially when you're probably not used to it; and feel confident in your own abilities (if given the space) to figure things out for yourself. But, who you are dancing with matters, some may give you the space to figure it out for yourself, and some may feel compelled to give advice.

I will say from my perspective ballroom has a lot of people who want to see other dancers grow and improve so they like to give feedback, especially to less experienced dancers. It's a part of the culture. Until you have a partner who understands how you learn best and will give you all the dance time and space you need to do so, you may need to take the feedback with a grain of salt and know that you don't need to be embarrassed. People aren't looking down on you for the mistakes, they are really trying to help.

The time that I do see more experienced dancers get a little annoyed (but they do their best to mask it), is if you don't seem like you are open to learning, hearing feedback and are just content in making them dance the same mistakes over and over again with you. Many will continue to dance with you out of etiquette, so it doesn't change your floor time, but they might try to dance (or power) you through it or just bide their time until it's time to rotate partners.

Ballroom is a journey of learning and feedback (even on this site), so it may help to reframe your thoughts away from embarrassment of missteps to making the most of a journey of never-ending, self-improvement.

Stay encouraged and keep dancing!

 

[vit]

I witnessed this unwanted teaching many times (both on myself and on other people and probably I did it sometimes though I really tried not to do it unless explicitly asked for it). Usually, both the "teacher" and the "student" were doing something wrong their own way, on average in similar percentages ...

Anyway, when I was in the role of "student" (even if the "teacher" was a person with maybe 1/10 of my experience, just that she didn't know it), I tried to learn something from it and see what I can improve to lead problematic followers better than other people (and then looking them "teaching" other people)

It was interesting that the "teachers" were usually followers that were among the worst dancers in the classes ... good dancers rarely tried to teach me, they tried to do their best to cope with my imperfect leading ...

If something doesn't work well, just go with your "teacher" to real teacher, say you have the problem with something without blaming him or yourself and ask if he/she can help to see what is wrong

 

[Brummbaer]

I know it must be boring dancing with follows who are beginnners but for me being constantly corrected by every lead I dance with is demoralising.

Anyone else have this problem?

It's mixed. There's a time and place.

I'm very grateful to follows during practices who've told me what I'm doing wrong for them, or what they're not feeling from my lead. I want feedback at the right time and place.

As a lead, I wouldn't tell a follow what they have to do. Maybe my lead isn't good enough? We might discuss it. Any 'teaching' I'd refer back to the teacher. I might explain to a beginner, during a practice(!), where, how/where those steps relate to my lead (the basics having been taught by the teacher). Are they feeling that? Maybe I'm being too subtle and need to be more obvious? But I'd never do this during a social dance.

If there's a misstep during some social, it's my lead that wasn't clear enough and my problem to resolve. I don't expect 'sorry' from a follow for a misstep! If it was a practice, maybe we'll have an inquest and try it again (assuming it's memorable and repeatable).

Of course, there's a group out there who just need to lead-splain (usually mansplain).

I do recognise the problem, having been told by professional female dance teachers how some male has tried to tell them what they should be doing.

I guess your solution is simply to be assertive about what you want to do. Call the teacher, if they're there, to explain.

 

[Happyhorsie]

i think the few bad leadsplainers out there ruin it for everyone lol. I for certain remember the few negative interactions much more strongly than the dozens of interactions I’ve had with leads that gave helpful and wanted critiques. I think it’s a matter of finding the correct environment too. I find some socials to be much more welcoming to beginners and others to be much more technique driven.

 

[russianwithin]

Hi Alora..

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you. When I (leader) started dancing 30 years ago, I had no money for group classes, let alone privates. I learned by dancing with experienced ladies at socials. I will be grateful for their comments, their feedback, their teaching, their corrections for the rest of my life!
You are annoyed about the behavior of those senior dancers because you mistake them for substitute dance partners, which they definitely are not. Just reframe them as a welcome gift!

Thank you for your comment and for someone like me, I would definitely agree. But I have found that sooo much of everything in dance or human interaction depends on how we take things and which ones actually benefit us and which ones discourage us and how we handle that rejection, that it is hard to know who needs what. Giving advice when none is solicited is generally considered rude.

 

[russianwithin]

It's mixed. There's a time and place.

I'm very grateful to follows during practices who've told me what I'm doing wrong for them, or what they're not feeling from my lead. I want feedback at the right time and place.

As a lead, I wouldn't tell a follow what they have to do. Maybe my lead isn't good enough? We might discuss it. Any 'teaching' I'd refer back to the teacher. I might explain to a beginner, during a practice(!), where, how/where those steps relate to my lead (the basics having been taught by the teacher). Are they feeling that? Maybe I'm being too subtle and need to be more obvious? But I'd never do this during a social dance.

If there's a misstep during some social, it's my lead that wasn't clear enough and my problem to resolve. I don't expect 'sorry' from a follow for a misstep! If it was a practice, maybe we'll have an inquest and try it again (assuming it's memorable and repeatable).

Of course, there's a group out there who just need to lead-splain (usually mansplain).

I do recognise the problem, having been told by professional female dance teachers how some male has tried to tell them what they should be doing.

I guess your solution is simply to be assertive about what you want to do. Call the teacher, if they're there, to explain.

I completely agree with your point of 'there is a time and space for everything". These things are definitely appropriate in practicas but probably are not appropriate during a social dance. No one should be apologizing for their dance mistakes and it really affects the dynamic of the dance when someone does it. Again, back to "there is a time and space for everything" concept.

 

[Mengu]

Sounds like it's a matter of setting expectations.

If I'm social dancing, I don't generally give feedback. Though... if I have an amazing dance, I'll certainly complement my partner.

If I'm in a group class or practice, I want, and will give feedback. Doesn't matter if I'm leading or following. I'm there to learn. I usually just ask, did I give you enough space? Was the size of my steps okay? Was that too early/late? Was the turn comfortable? In similar fashion, I will give feedback if something I need to do on my end is not possible because of my partner. So I would say, my step here is forward, so I need that space, or your elbow is too close to my face and I'm having to back away from it, can you keep it lower, or I need your other hand... For me this is just common sense stuff, and I don't see it as teaching, I just see it as a means of getting through a class.

But honestly, even in group class settings, most people are too scared to give feedback because they've been told too many times that they shouldn't be giving unsolicited advice. I take any critique I can get regardless of the environment. If it's something I don't need, I can always thank the person, and ignore the information. If it's something possible but questionable, I can say I'll discuss it later with my instructor. If it's something I've heard before and am forgetting to do, I can pay more attention to it. If it's something new and helpful, I can just try to implement it and see how it feels. Of course I'm at a place in my dancing where I can comfortably make these decisions and don't have confidence issues. With beginners, encouragement is super important, so it's best to make a good critique sandwich when giving feedback.

Just recently I was dancing with a significantly shorter follow, and after the dance when we were chatting about random dance things, she told me my arm was a little to high, pushing her shoulder up in closed position. I thanked her for the feedback. Next night, I was dancing with someone else about her height, and I paid attention to it, indeed I realized, I needed to drop my elbow and create more of an angle with my wrist to make it comfortable for my follow, so one person's feedback helped make the dance more comfortable for another. Then, since I'm obsessive, I went and dug for some videos of adults dancing with kids, to see how they adjust their arms, and managed to find some good and bad examples. Fun stuff...

 

[Tango Distance]

At Argentine Tango practicas, I would get so much advice I couldn't act on all of it, it was too much at once. A good solution for me was to say something, at the beginning, like "I'd like your feedback, but my brain can only handle 2 or 3 suggestions." That would limit the yak attack, and more time was spent practicing, and I could give better focus to their suggestions. It also helped my ego... a little bit... but I have to admit the feedback made me a better dancer.