Vals criollo

[DanceMentor]

I write into this phrase and I didn't know what it meant so I thought I would raise it as a topic and surely someone will know better than me. I don't know if it's just basically the type of tango music like Vals or if the word "criolla" gives it additional meaning?

 

[opendoor]

Any name other than tango vals is welcome:
- vals porteño
- vals rioplatense
- vals chiuidada
- vals cruzada
- vals criollo.

(Just between us: criollo means "with candombe drums". But that vals is basically an offspring of Viennese Walz)

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I write into this phrase and I didn't know what it meant so I thought I would raise it as a topic and surely someone will know better than me. I don't know if it's just basically the type of tango music like Vals or if the word "criolla" gives it additional meaning?

AFAIK, it simply means traditional, local, authentic. As opposed to some foreign import.

 

[Brummbaer]

There's a version of the history on Ultimate Tango

It's the imported 'Waltz' from Europe (Ländler) adapted by the Creole people. Then it evolved from the mid 1800's. It's not 'Waltz' in the ballroom sense. It's not Viennese Waltz (Wiener Vals), but the music is a similar rhythm. I think many would now call it Tango Vals - but with no idea of its origins.

 

[Rabbit]

I write into this phrase and I didn't know what it meant so I thought I would raise it as a topic and surely someone will know better than me. I don't know if it's just basically the type of tango music like Vals or if the word "criolla" gives it additional meaning?

You found one of the more complicated to translate words that has to do with Argentinian cultural identity. Honestly I'd just translate it as Argentine waltz

 

[opendoor]

..just translate it as Argentine waltz

I used Argentine waltz for years until some Argentinian folk dancers complained that the vals porteño is not common in Argentina.

 

[Brummbaer]

Honestly I'd just translate it as Argentine waltz

I don't think it's good to use the anglicised 'waltz'. 'Vals' rings truer (at least to me, and we use TTVTTM), but it needs to be clear either from context, or explicitly, as Argentine Tango Vals. Otherwise it seems to associate ballroom waltz, or Viennese waltz. Nor is it just a 'waltz' as danced in Argentina.

 

[Rabbit]

I'm just trying to translate the intent, I make no statement about what I think the English term should be

thought about using the word "folk" tbh but decided against it

 

[Steve Pastor]

Looking at Denniston I see Vals Cruzada and she adds that even in the Golden Age some still danced Viennese Waltz in some parts of BA.
(tuns out that one "pattern" we learned at ATUSA was doing crosses to waltz timing but don't remember hearing it called that)
Other than that, criollo would be a local adaptation of something foreign, no?

 

[opendoor]

..in the Golden Age some still danced Viennese Waltz in some parts of BA..

Of course they danced VW because vals wasn't invented yet.

The vals porteño is a relatively young dance, and despite its name, it has struggled to gain popularity in BsA. It originated when tango composers began to incorporate sounds from their city into the Viennese and the American Waltz (Bosten).

So all transitional forms can be found in both music and dance. While in Europe the vals porteño had already established itself as equal to tango by the 70s, the BsA dancers still seem somewhat unfamiliar with this dance. Some DJs still do not play vals at milongas today.

Hugo de Carril, for example, dances it here in the same way that the Ländler is danced in Austria.

 

[Brummbaer]

Looking at Denniston I see Vals Cruzada and she adds that even in the Golden Age some still danced Viennese Waltz in some parts of BA.
(tuns out that one "pattern" we learned at ATUSA was doing crosses to waltz timing but don't remember hearing it called that)
Other than that, criollo would be a local adaptation of something foreign, no?

Well, yes, they would, wouldn't they? Viennese Waltz has a much longer history. Known around Vienna in the mid 18th century (as a local folk dance, Ländler, danced in the Tirol and Bavaria), so comparable age to your country, and very popular in Vienna in the late 18th and early 19th century (see also the composed music by Strauss, etc, in that era). Codified as an American standard dance sometime in the 19th century.

Argentine Tango Vals (picking up the various language terms used by immigrants - Walz (German - to roll, or revolve), Vals (Scandinavian), Valse (French). Although there are earlier references to Vals criollo, it became better known around the mid 1930's (Golden Age), with most music composed in that era. The music, although related to Viennese Waltz, is different. Vals music is generally faster. The dance had evolved from those earlier waltzes, including the Viennese Waltz, brought over by immigrants and mixed with other dances. It's a fusion dance! So yes, of course there were people dancing Viennese Waltz to the music at that time.

one "pattern" we learned at ATUSA was doing crosses to waltz timing

If you learned AT with sequences like the 8CB, then that didn't come in until the 1930's (the 'cross' is much earlier! The 8CB was just a pattern for learning elements). Perhaps because we didn't learn the 8CB 'pattern' until later our early vals was always about revolving, or rotating, with 'rock steps', giros and ochos, cross-system - and, of course, timing and musicality. And progressing!

So, as a fusion dance, I go back to Argentine Tango Vals.

 

[opendoor]

..brought over by immigrants and mixed with other dances. It's a fusion dance!

These early imports did not yet lead to the vals porteño. It was the suitcases full of sheet music that people like Canaro brought back from their tours of Europe: Canaro passed off countless Strauss and Waldteufel melodies as his own waltzes.

 

[Brummbaer]

These early imports did not yet lead to the vals porteño. It was the suitcases full of sheet music that people like Canaro brought back from their tours of Europe: Canaro passed off countless Strauss and Waldteufel melodies as his own waltzes.

That's the music; not the dance. The dancers weren't imported to do a specific variant! They were the immigrant mix that was present with their home country, probably rural, background.

But what we have today as a dance isn't pure vals criolla, nor porteña, nor cruzada, nor anything else associated with some barrio or larger region (unless someone is still dancing some 'pure' form in some isolated area). They've all fused together. Doubtless there could be some sort of family tree put together, but do we care (except in historical interest, or maybe some interesting step or cadena)?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Of course they danced VW because vals wasn't invented y

Can you please explain this when we have Tango Vals from Canaro and De Angelis that go pretty far back? Are you claiming that the Tango Vals didn't exist before the 1940s?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Hugo de Carril, for example, dances it here in the same way that the Ländler is danced in Austria.

Actors in a movie, not social tango. We can't really judge from this.