Vals criollo

[brujo]

You found one of the more complicated to translate words that has to do with Argentinian cultural identity. Honestly I'd just translate it as Argentine waltz

Criollo is also super interesting for people from other countries. In the sense that in Mexico and Central America there was pride in mestizaje ( mixing of Spanish descendants - criollos with native population ) whereas in Argentina it was more to distinguish against the new wave of European immigrants. As if criollo is authentic and almost gaucho like. So when you talk to a Spanish speaker about this the subtle difference is not immediately obvious specially in the USA that has a much much higher Mexican influence.

 

[Brummbaer]

Can you please explain this when we have Tango Vals from Canaro and De Angelis that go pretty far back? Are you claiming that the Tango Vals didn't exist before the 1940s?

It existed, but not as we would know it today, and it's naming is unclear - all of those names quoted by @opendoor were possible.
Rather the music shaped what we have today. Similar could also be said of milonga, which existed in other forms, but becomes what we know today in the 1930's.

 

[opendoor]

Actors in a movie, not social tango. We can't really judge from this.

We can use this very effectively: just look at the extras, for instance.

And sure, Carril's movements are dictated by the camera and the script. But he was an experienced social tango dancer, we know that.

And finally: Argentine films always reflect their self-image. So we know how they imagined and portrayed their history.

Therefore, such accounts are very revealing: however, one needs knowledge of hermeneutics, which I have, as you know.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Jo Baum has an entire chapter titled “Tangos in Waltz Time” with examples as early as the 1800s including “Valse-time movements.” Her book is Tango Creation of a Cultural Icon.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

It existed, but not as we would know it today, and it's naming is unclear - all of those names quoted by @opendoor were possible.
Rather the music shaped what we have today. Similar could also be said of milonga, which existed in other forms, but becomes what we know today in the 1930's.

I'd have to look at the dates for Vals by De Angelis, for example, or Canaro. I'm guessing that the majority of them that we are familiar with are from the 1930s, but I'm not certain. I know that the Milonga we know today did change from what existed prior to 1930, even 1925.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And finally: Argentine films always reflect their self-image. So we know how they imagined and portrayed their history.

Yes, they are revealing of their ideal self-image not of the current reality of social dance as it was practiced. One is myth-making and one is reality.

The people dancing in the following footage are real dancers not actors.

 

[Brummbaer]

Jo Baum has an entire chapter titled “Tangos in Waltz Time” with examples as early as the 1800s including “Valse-time movements.” Her book is Tango Creation of a Cultural Icon.

Lima (~1916, Argentine Tango of the Salon) also mentions that tango steps can be applied to the music of the waltz, and specifically described vueltas (travelling waltz turns).

Yes, 'waltz', in many forms, existed before some of the cited 'beginnings' of AT. Waltz music existed long before, so it's hardly surprising that they fused together, along with various other 'vals' forms (criollo, cruzada...) nor that some people danced Viennese Waltz to some 'tango' music. 'Authenticity' doesn't apply. Those were variants which fused with other forms and music. Some may have fused with other forms for dances in other regions. We don't dance those specific forms now in AT (even if elements appear), so 'Argentine Tango Vals' seems an appropriate designation.

 

[opendoor]

..so 'Argentine Tango Vals' seems an appropriate designation.

Brother, why are you stabbing me in the ribs with your knife?

If you had read my posts in this and all the other threads, you would also know that vals finally deserves to be recognized as its own dance form!

 

[Brummbaer]

Brother, why are you stabbing me in the ribs with your knife?

Because...

Any name other than tango vals is welcome:
- vals porteño
- vals rioplatense
- vals chiuidada
- vals cruzada
- vals criollo.

Which misleads the original question in an AT forum.

I don't know if it's just basically the type of tango music like Vals or if the word "criolla" gives it additional meaning?

that vals finally deserves to be recognized as its own dance form

Yes, the Argentine Tango Vals is nowadays its own dance form created from a fusion of Waltz, Polka, Viennese Waltz, Schottische.... and all those others together with AT, and appropriate music. Yes, in AT's early days people fitted what they knew to the music - including Viennese Waltz. 'Criollo' is a specific form of a 'waltz' (vals), still existing in Peru(?). Is it relevant? That's not what we're dancing in today's milongas, nor are we using Peruvian music (although maybe in an 'alternative' milonga).

Google will take you to 'Vals Criollo' music or 'Argentine Tango Vals' music - but neither of them are ballroom waltz nor Viennese Waltz.

 

[opendoor]

..Is it relevant? That's not what we're dancing in today's milongas, nor are we using Peruvian music..

That refutes your own arguments. We're currently writing about the Vals Porteño, not the Vals Peruvano.

..Google will take you to 'Vals Criollo' music or 'Argentine Tango Vals' music - but neither of them are ballroom waltz nor Viennese Waltz.

Never said that.

 

[itwillhappen]

I usually use the bare term "Vals".

 

[Brummbaer]

We're currently writing about the Vals Porteño, not the Vals Peruvano.

The question was about criollo in an AT forum; not about 'porteña' specifically. You might be writing about something different?

'Vals criollo' (originally) leads to Peru, and then spreads out... - and becomes one ingredient amongst others in the recipe for today's 'Argentine Tango Vals'.

Never said that.

No, you didn't, but others have picked up on Viennese Waltz, and also whatever was danced (AT) pre Golden Age to 'waltz' music. But Google does provide a simple answer to the question - and some different music.

 

[Brummbaer]

I usually use the bare term "Vals".

And that's fine because the implicit context is Argentine Tango. If you're considering it amidst a plethora of other waltz forms, and in English, or historically, it needs to be specific.

 

[opendoor]

The question was about criollo in an AT forum..

You're mistaken, I and almost everyone else wrote about the "vals porteño". Your vacillation shows that we need reliable vocabulary. We're not responsible for the fact that Argentinians and most South Americans misuse the adjective "criolla".

 

[Brummbaer]

I and almost everyone else wrote about the "vals porteño"

I don't know if it's just basically the type of tango music like Vals or if the word "criolla" gives it additional meaning?

Yeah, right