Video-ing milongas?

[Zoopsia59]

One effect is the one which replaces the edges in the video by lines, and discards other information.
(The basic free Windows Movie Maker can apply this effect in real time).
.

That sounds similar to the "posterize" selection in Photoshop. Yes?

 

[Madahlia]

I'd really love to video some social dancing - frankly, at some venues, to show How Not To Do It.

But I'm not sure about the legalities? I assume I'd need to get the owner's permission, yes? Would he also need to announce it or something?

Anyone know the protocols? Anyone have experience of doing this (in the UK)?

Well yes, I think DB is serious about the filming, but I'm not at all sure that we can assume his sole purpose is to cast catty aspersions on other people's dancing - I think that might have been a bit of a throwaway line, that I picked up on because the idea of filming brings out all my insecurities. I can see that carefully chosen bits of footage might be a good teaching aid - perhaps the man himself could explain exactly why he would like to do this filming.

Just not one of those things in life that's important enough to care about.

Of course not, but important enough to spoil my pleasure in a tanda when someone's intrusive lens is being shoved between me and my partner. There should be at least an illusion of privacy in the connection, no? Flash photography is far worse than video in that respect, though.

That said, I actually would like to be in a video. It is good for improvement to see yourself. And even if my dancing was criticized, I would not particularly care.

There's a UK teacher that provides a videoing service which apparently can have transforming results for those who then observe their own dancing and are able to make changes as a result.

When you actually look at social dancing videos, it's quite difficult to pinpoint "bad" dancing.

There are so many features that constitute a personal idea of "good" or "bad" dancing that I think that's absolutely true. I'm not sure it would be easy to get clear videos of poor floorcraft, you'd need Video Ref for adjudication in some cases.

A different example - I think it would be very easy to get videos of followers showing poor foot and leg placement and posture, however, and if you compared it with a "correct" video, it would be an incredibly effective teaching tool. When you see beginner followers developing bad habits just for want of a little basic awareness I can see the point of the How Not To Do It approach.

 

[mshedgehog]

Legally AFAIK (in the UK) you are safe. If anyone is annoyed by your activities, their protest or retaliation is more likely to be of an extra-legal nature.

 

[Dave Bailey]

If he'd stopped after the first sentence, I'd agree with you, but he specifically went on to ask about legalities and protocols, so my impression is that he's serious.

I'm serious about the filming. Less so about "how not to do it".

I guess what I want is to show people what social dancing is like - and, ideally, yes, I'd like to show examples of problems and how they occurred, without personalising it of course.

The thing is, you can talk about good floorcraft until you're blue in the face, but for most people it simply doesn't register. Whereas, I think, video evidence is more compelling.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I can see that carefully chosen bits of footage might be a good teaching aid

Yep, pretty much.

There's a UK teacher that provides a videoing service which apparently can have transforming results for those who then observe their own dancing and are able to make changes as a result.

I video people routinely when I give private lessons, and provide the videos to them on a memory stick the next time I see them. If I were really slick, I could download the vids onto a laptop right there and then, then show them, analyse it, and provide a stick immediately.

There are so many features that constitute a personal idea of "good" or "bad" dancing that I think that's absolutely true. I'm not sure it would be easy to get clear videos of poor floorcraft, you'd need Video Ref for adjudication in some cases.

If there's a collision, it's poor floorcraft. Seems fairly straightforward.

 

[Captain Jep]

If there's a collision, it's poor floorcraft. Seems fairly straightforward.

Lol. Not when there are egos involved

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm not at all sure that we can assume his sole purpose is to cast catty aspersions on other people's dancing

I don't think he has being catty as a purpose at all. But using other local dancers as examples in this way is a slippery slope and could easily be viewed as catty by listeners or by the people who are used as examples.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Lol. Not when there are egos involved

My suggestion about having a mock altercation turn into something that becomes a fistfight outside wasn't just a joke... I actually did see a leader follow another leader out of the room after an altercation on the dance floor and make comments suggestive of "taking it outside" as though they were going to come to blows and he was fine with that. He had even removed his glasses!

Clearly there was some discrepancy as to who each thought was to blame for whatever had occurred.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm serious about the filming. Less so about "how not to do it".

I guess what I want is to show people what social dancing is like - and, ideally, yes, I'd like to show examples of problems and how they occurred, without personalising it of course.

The thing is, you can talk about good floorcraft until you're blue in the face, but for most people it simply doesn't register. Whereas, I think, video evidence is more compelling.

I don't think its possible to do it without personalizing it if you are pointing out people who are recognizable. If you limit yourself to pointing out the problems of people in the class at a milonga, that's different. But to bring anyone else recognizable into it, even in a non-malicious way, just seems like asking for trouble.

I agree that visual aids are very helpful for many students. I just don't agree that your idea is the ONLY way to give them an experience that goes beyond merely talking about floorcraft.

You can correct them as they dance whenever they go against LOD or do something that would be "bad". You can use chairs to both simulate obstacles or to make the dance space very tight so that they have to dance closer to other couples and with smaller movements. You can get in their way to prompt them to improvise. You can dance with a partner in an obnoxious way so they feel first hand how annoying it is to have someone like that on the floor. You can require that everyone dance a song without the followers ever lifting their feet from the floor no matter what is led. you can make them dance in a clump with the other couples.

Or you can use the "photoshopping" technique on the video described by another poster, and run the risk of having the thing so diluted that you can't really see what happened well enough for it to be helpful.

Personally, I just don't think making an example of other local dancers, no matter how "polite" you are about it, is the best option in the long run.

 

[Ampster]

A few friends and myself rented out place to have a private milonga so we can video ourselves for learning a critiquing purposes. That would include everything from form, to technique, to floor-craft, to navigation, etc. etc. etc. I was just better this way than to video it in some milonga and terrorize everyone else.

 

[Captain Jep]

I assumed that DB was hoping to film floorcraft infractions which are much easier to pinpoint when watching a video. (otherwise, why bother filming at a milonga? If he just wants to show good or bad dancing technique, there are plenty of ways to do that)

For example, if someone travels backwards against LOD and slams into the person behind them who has that "Oh NO!" deer in the headlights look as they are about to get rammed, ther's SOME room for interpretatino, but not a lot.

If the floor is crowded and there is a couple doing large moves with wildly swinging free legs, its not hard to see on a wide angle video that their dancing is innapropriate for the conditions.

Basically, the things that you can notice about people's floorcraft while dancing can often be seen on a video too. You know... those things we all complain about, but none of US ever do!

Hmm .. I still think it's not usually that clear cut.

There will always be some people on the floor dancing "large". Now they would argue that's OK unless the floor is very crowded. But how crowded is very crowded? It's not easy to tell on a video.

Also, let's say it's an "alternative" milonga. Is it OK then to dance large whatever the conditions?

Again with the moving backwards. Many people find it impossible to eliminate this completely from their dance. Taking one step backwards is OK on a reasonably empty floor. But as it gets more crowded , you need to reduce this to a half step backwards. Or if it's really busy, a rock onto your heels.

Likewise , tailgating. In reasonably busy conditions some people (like myself ) will use tailgating to keep the floor flowing. That's less appropriate as the floor gets less busy.

So - everything is a matter of degrees. Which is not always easy to judge on a social dancing video.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Hmm .. I still think it's not usually that clear cut.

There will always be some people on the floor dancing "large". Now they would argue that's OK unless the floor is very crowded. But how crowded is very crowded? It's not easy to tell on a video.

Also, let's say it's an "alternative" milonga. Is it OK then to dance large whatever the conditions?

Again with the moving backwards. Many people find it impossible to eliminate this completely from their dance. Taking one step backwards is OK on a reasonably empty floor. But as it gets more crowded , you need to reduce this to a half step backwards. Or if it's really busy, a rock onto your heels.

Likewise , tailgating. In reasonably busy conditions some people (like myself ) will use tailgating to keep the floor flowing. That's less appropriate as the floor gets less busy.

So - everything is a matter of degrees. Which is not always easy to judge on a social dancing video.

Of course, there's always room for questions. In fact, questions are a useful teaching tool. If the situation has room for interpretation, that can be part of the discussion with the students.

However, typically at a milonga, we know (or feel we know) who is causing the problems. It frequently isn't as subjective as you are making it out to be. The person who consistently charges across the floor diagonally to the other side without concern for other dances is consistently a problem. The follower who impales others with her stilettos because she NEVER keeps her feet down regardless of conditions gets a reputation. Then she has room no matter how crowded it is, because people know to avoid getting to close.

Whatever we are able to observe when present in the room will also be something we might be able to discern on a video. If we are capable of judging conditions and what's appropriate when we are AT the milonga, we ought to be able to make some reasonable similar judgement from watching a full video of it. Closeups tell you nothing, but a widescreen view should tell you the same things that being there would have told you. Or are you suggesting that even when you are dancing, you can't know what is acceptable floorcraft?

If you don't agree then let's just agree to disagree, because we are going in circles now. You think a video would be pretty useless and can't be convinced otherwise. I think it would be useful (and can't be convinced otherwise) but is ill advised for other reasons.

Basically neither of us feel the video is DB's best alternative, so why are we debating each other?

 

[AndaBien]

DB, as mentioned before, why don't you just video your own class and offer criticism to those who want to hear it, based on their own dancing? If you want a milonga situation, create one.

 

[Captain Jep]

Of course, there's always room for questions. In fact, questions are a useful teaching tool. If the situation has room for interpretation, that can be part of the discussion with the students.

However, typically at a milonga, we know (or feel we know) who is causing the problems. It frequently isn't as subjective as you are making it out to be. The person who consistently charges across the floor diagonally to the other side without concern for other dances is consistently a problem. The follower who impales others with her stilettos because she NEVER keeps her feet down regardless of conditions gets a reputation. Then she has room no matter how crowded it is, because people know to avoid getting to close.

Whatever we are able to observe when present in the room will also be something we might be able to discern on a video. If we are capable of judging conditions and what's appropriate when we are AT the milonga, we ought to be able to make some reasonable similar judgement from watching a full video of it. Closeups tell you nothing, but a widescreen view should tell you the same things that being there would have told you. Or are you suggesting that even when you are dancing, you can't know what is acceptable floorcraft?

If you don't agree then let's just agree to disagree, because we are going in circles now. You think a video would be pretty useless and can't be convinced otherwise. I think it would be useful (and can't be convinced otherwise) but is ill advised for other reasons.

Basically neither of us feel the video is DB's best alternative, so why are we debating each other?

Well yes I deliberately ignored the obvious cases. Nutty leaders and lethal followers. They would be obvious to see.

I think what would be more difficult to see would be the effect of these people. Not just on their immediate vicinity. But also on the rest of the floor. As we have noted on other threads, it only takes two or three idiots to disrupt the whole flow of the dance floor. You would have to really know your business to show this on a video camera.

Of course I'm not suggesting that we cant make judgements on good floorcraft. All that I am saying is that there is a large grey area between "good" and "absolutely rubbish". Ideally for instance you should never go backwards against the LOD. But most people do. What effect it has depends on many factors, and these may be things that are not at all obvious in a video.

I will be interested if DB actually does the filming, and what he comes up with. But I'll be surprised if it tells us more than the "bleedin' obvious". Will it change behaviour? That I doubt.

 

[Zoopsia59]

All that I am saying is that there is a large grey area between "good" and "absolutely rubbish". Ideally for instance you should never go backwards against the LOD. But most people do. What effect it has depends on many factors, and these may be things that are not at all obvious in a video.

So you agree to disagree, right?

Or are you going to keep trying to convince me despite the futility of such?