Violence in Dance Class....

[peachexploration]

Okay, this is something that happened earlier this year. (I've been on Salsa "dance" vacation for a while.) A couple of months before that, I had to stop classes for about two weeks because I kept throwing my back out. How was I throwing my back out? Guys who'd push, pull, twist my arm off while in the hammerlock move. It was awful! :evil: The last straw? This guy in class (intermediate student) was having trouble with this move. He wanted me to go one way but his body movement said something else. The teacher caught it and corrected him. So, he tries it again and still can't get it and is quite frustrated at this point. So instead of asking for the teacher's help again, I get a karate chop right in the middle of my back. :evil: Before the pain set in, it was everything I could do not to smack him silly. What gives, guys? How in the world could any dance make someone violent? Also, I think this could be one reason why there is quite a shortage of women in classes? What do you think? Is it just me or is it just me? :lol:

 

[foursquare]

Okay, this is something that happened earlier this year. (I've been on Salsa "dance" vacation for a while.) A couple of months before that, I had to stop classes for about two weeks because I kept throwing my back out. How was I throwing my back out? Guys who'd push, pull, twist my arm off while in the hammerlock move. It was awful! :evil: The last straw? This guy in class (intermediate student) was having trouble with this move. He wanted me to go one way but his body movement said something else. The teacher caught it and corrected him. So, he tries it again and still can't get it and is quite frustrated at this point. So instead of asking for the teacher's help again, I get a karate chop right in the middle of my back. :evil: Before the pain set in, it was everything I could do not to smack him silly. What gives, guys? How in the world could any dance make someone violent? Also, I think this could be one reason why there is quite a shortage of women in classes? What do you think? Is it just me or is it just me? :lol:

Just a clarification: Did this hit occur as a product of still not getting the move right, or did he do it out of frustration and hit the closest thing, namely you?

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[etchuck]

Gosh, I hope you're feeling better/recovering well...

I am not sure how well lead/follow technique is taught by that instructor, but certainly in the swing classes and ballroom classes, people are shown how not to crank down the arm to cause injuries. At least there is some reason why technique is very important there. I'm not sure if the salsa instructor there made a good point about that. Of course, less-experienced leaders tend to not know what hurts the follower I suppose, and I guess we have a mentality that a lead must be constant throughout the move.

I make that mistake on occasion, and I'm trying to learn leading more patiently than I have before. But I certainly know there are only certain directions an arm joint moves and I try to be sure my hand-grip is light enough that any unintented motion doesn't cause an injury. (Granted, the follower can't death-grip me either, but then I won't tend to do those moves.)

P.S. Of course, I also do a lot of other types of dances that I try to import some moves to others. Hammerlocks come up in swing dancing too (and I've done it/taught it in merengue SLOWLY), and if you get the concepts there, you can do hammerlocks in the club dances really well. Not that it helps your lead at that point.

 

[Vin]

OUCH :shock:
I am assuming the karate chop was accidental, I hope. If it was on purpose he should have been kicked out of class forever no refund, no nothing and he is lucky if you don't press charges.
I think though that it is very irresponsible of both the other student and the teacher. The other student shouldn't try and rush a complicated move that he does not know well and the teacher should allow enough time for the move to be learned well. Not too mention in every dance class I think it should constantly be mentioned to the leads that women are people too and not lifeless rag dolls that can be turned and twisted in every way imaginable.
This is why I don't like momentum based salsa. I feel every lead should allow the follow to do her own thing should she not feel safe doing a movement. Yes I do imply that you do an inside turn but if you don't feel like you have the space then you are free to stop the turn without me pulling your arm out of socket. Or I imply that you do a double free spin but if you feel the carpet will cause an ankle twist feel free to just stand there when I give that slight push.

 

[peachexploration]

Foursquare, it was out of frustration unfortunately. And no, he still did not get the move. His exact words were "No, go here!" Then, I got the infamous chop. I gave him a long stare and the teacher quickly said change partners now! Gave him a special five minutes lesson to the side before returning him to the rest of the class.

Oh, I think also that some people get so concetrated on the move that they forget that they are dancing with another person. But this was happening too much (among other reasons) so I stopped classes for a while.

 

[tj]

Ow!

That's just sooo rude and wrong.

Usually, I'll chalk that sort of thing up to:
1) An instructor not taking enough time to explain proper technique.

And/or:

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've had Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

 

[peachexploration]

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've heard Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

Yeah, I think your #2 is right on. I really wished my teacher would have asked him to sit out the rest of the class after that. I wouldn't dance with him after that.

 

[borikensalsero]

God, I'm so sorry, sadly it happens so often, I knew a guy that used to scream out of the top of his longs for the girl to go where he wanted her. He would even PUSH them to where he wanted. It was like watching a wrestling match... He is better but still blames the follower for his leading mistakes. He has even left girls on the dance-floor because, "supposedly" they couldn't follow.

It is sad, but that is the kind of behavior that Pattern salsa seems to promote. We get people that teach salsa as patterns, then students like the one you mentioned wants to do things he can't do, only because he thinks of it as dancing salsa, hence, must learn at all costs! Darn philosophy, it only causes problems! I can't stand it when I go to a class, and all the instructor is worried about is getting a few patterns down! Then say, lets dance! AHHHHH, I'm so sorry you are going through this peach.

 

[etchuck]

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've heard Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

Yeah, I think your #2 is right on. I really wished my teacher would have asked him to sit out the rest of the class after that. I wouldn't dance with him after that.

Sounds like the guy deserves 2 minutes in a penalty box. Granted, I don't think that happens if a student is paying for a class.

I think the attitude is not specifically pervasive in salsa, but certainly teaching that move in an intermediate class requires a lot of time and patience if you don't want anyone to get hurt.

 

[foursquare]

Foursquare, it was out of frustration unfortunately. And no, he still did not get the move. His exact words were "No, go here!" Then, I got the infamous chop. I gave him a long stare and the teacher quickly said change partners now! Gave him a special five minutes lesson to the side before returning him to the rest of the class.

Oh, I think also that some people get so concetrated on the move that they forget that they are dancing with another person. But this was happening too much (among other reasons) so I stopped classes for a while.

Point him out Peach... I'll give him a private five minute lesson the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm showing my age, but you if you're a guy, I don't care what you're going through at the moment, you don't hit a girl. You hit a girl, and I'll be right there hitting you back for her.

That the teacher or anyone else in the class didn't do the same disgusts me.

foursquare
(Glad to hear you're none the worse for wear anyway.)

 

[peachexploration]

God, I'm so sorry, sadly it happens so often, I knew a guy that used to scream out of the top of his longs for the girl to go where he wanted her.

Yeah, seen that one too many times as well.

It is sad, but that is the kind of behavior that Pattern salsa seems to promote.

Boriken, this really shines some light on it and you're right, this was the culprit. He (and others) just had to get that sequence pattern at all costs and was not getting the specifics of partner work or really wasn't even thinking in those terms.

 

[peachexploration]

....
Point him out Peach... I'll give him a private five minute lesson the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm showing my age, but you if you're a guy, I don't care what you're going through at the moment, you don't hit a girl. You hit a girl, and I'll be right there hitting you back for her.

That the teacher or anyone else in the class didn't do the same disgusts me.

foursquare
(Glad to hear you're none the worse for wear anyway.)

Okay, his name is @#$#$ and he goes the @#$$% salsa school. Hahahahah. Just Kidding!! He's probably in the advanced class spreading the havoc!! :nope: Joking aside. I think we were all shocked, even the instructor. I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath, that hurt not only my back but my perception of Salsa. But Salsa had nothing to do with him or his actions. He did that on his own. :evil:

 

[borikensalsero]

I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath, that hurt not only my back but my perception of Salsa. But Salsa had nothing to do with him or his actions. He did that on his own. :evil:

This is the very reason why I can't stand it when instructors teach patterns; yet say nothing about its philosophical application. We need to teach newbies not only patterns, but the safe heaven and the priorities, that patterns will never make you dance, what makes salsa dancing is but the enjoyment and fulfillment from being together with the music, and your partner. Patterns are not salsa, it doesn’t matter how many of them you do!!!

There needs to be the passing of knowledge to guide people who have never been on a dance floor, those who have never taken a class and don’t understand lead/follow, the courtship of salsa, etc. As teachers we should be responsible for our students actions on the floor, after all not only are they doing what they’ve been taught, but also become a representation of that instructor. The student will dance, what the instructor has taught both consciously and unconsciously. He will use the philosophical display of the teacher’s dance and create what he thinks is salsa dancing. Newbies see instructors dancing one way then want the same, yet the teacher doesn’t take the time to explain the why/how/when/where/what of the intricacies of salsa. Crap, someone of them don’t even know it themselves! Never-the-less, the only way to stop this is to each one of us be responsible for passing-on something more than, dude that was a cool move, can you do this one! Lets try this, this and that, we have one hour how many moves can we learn! Ok, new class, new move, there is no time to wait. Lots of move yet no knowledge of application! It’s a shame!! How about more instructors wake up and see that philosophy of salsa is truly the dance, not the spins, shines, patterns!! Ahhhhh, I’m mad!

 

[foursquare]

I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath

That's what I'm saying. If more of us stepped up to the plate and "got in the way," I think we'd see a decline in that sort of behavior. I am slow to anger, but when I see a guy abusing a chick, be it hitting, yelling, or unwelcome advances, I will happily get involved. Verbal abuse, or a guy just getting a little too familiar than the girl is comfortable with can be dealt with with a little "Dude, what the ****'s your problem?" Hitting a chick? That requires a little physical retaliation to drive home the point that this is something that we, as guys, don't do.

If this guy that hit you had gotten popped right away by someone, say, me, than he's going to think twice before he does it again. That he got off unscathed leads me to believe that he'll just do it again until someone does take a poke at him.

Sorry, feel a little strongly about this. I see too many chicks put up with this kind of crap, and see too little help from the boys when it does happen.

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[DanceAm]

I have usually noticed that a man's biggest problem when learning is confidence and not executing the move with enough energy is the problem. He is usually so apologetic and gun shy that he takes forever to learn to execute the move.

Then to force the move is the other problem.

I have also witnessed those that act superior making it seem like the other's fault.

But to force the move then get violent, that is a first of a story like that for me. And he is still dancing and taking classes?