Voltas and Bota Fogos

[caw]

Having always been told to straighten my knees before the placement of weight before Voltas and Bota Fogos, I was really shocked to see Slavik demonstrate them both with bent knees.

So is this an older way of doing it, is it just a different style of doing it, or are they just being relaxed in their demonstration?


If you watch their voltas, they drag the leg across while it is still bent, and then put weight on it.

If you watch their bota fogos, Slavik almost always replaces his weight without straightening the leg (maybe he straightens on bota fogo number 2, or maybe it's just his pants)

 

[debmc]

Hmmm... I keep on watching and changing my post. I see what you mean Caw.

 

[fascination]

1) I was always taught that it is straight on the "uh" before the one..and it you look very closely at slow speed....which my internet sevrice provides free of cost, lol...you can see that brief flick of a moment
2) as my first pro, and no doubt the 2 who have followed him would say, "you can break the rules once everyone knows that you know them"

 

[dancelvr]

I saw a 'weight transfer for Samba' lecture by Peter Stokkebroe demonstrating something similar. It's on YouTube. It's a 30 minute video, so you have to wade through some chatter, but it has to do with maintaining continuous motion. I haven't discussed this with my DP yet, 'cause my Samba is still deeply in the Newcomer stage.

 

[vit]

So is this an older way of doing it, is it just a different style of doing it, or are they just being relaxed in their demonstration?

You should see her dancing in the "behind the scenes" part of that DVD

 

[Partner Dancer]

If you watch their voltas, they drag the leg across while it is still bent, and then put weight on it.

Being able to lead a beginner through a Volta and/or Bota Fogo, with
whatever legwork, is a criteria I use to determine better/worse.

A lot of Samba dancers miss the entire point on how the (coordination of
the) upper body is vital to smooth and useful/meaningful (to lead+
follow) Samba motion. But then, so much Samba is done as clunky hops
(that can't support l+f) these days anyway.

 

[caw]

1) I was always taught that it is straight on the "uh" before the one..and it you look very closely at slow speed....which my internet sevrice provides free of cost, lol...you can see that brief flick of a moment
2) as my first pro, and no doubt the 2 who have followed him would say, "you can break the rules once everyone knows that you know them"

1) I agree. Yes, I see them doing it on the Bota Fogos, but I was also told to straighten both legs on the "a" before the 2 also. And in the voltas, they never straighten that front leg
2) I have no doubt that they are allowed to break the rules, but you don't break the rules for no reason - you do it for a purpose. I can't conceive of what purpose they would be breaking this rule for, so I am starting to doubt the rule.

Being able to lead a beginner through a Volta and/or Bota Fogo, with
whatever legwork, is a criteria I use to determine better/worse.

A lot of Samba dancers miss the entire point on how the (coordination of
the) upper body is vital to smooth and useful/meaningful (to lead+
follow) Samba motion. But then, so much Samba is done as clunky hops
(that can't support l+f) these days anyway.

I don't quite see how that is relevant...

 

[vit]

I'm not that much in touch with ballroom recently, but checked some other DVDs and can't see really stretched legs before mentioned steps in both bota fogos and voltas. I remember talking about straightening the knees from my ballroom days, but it was mostly related to rumba and cha cha. It's also mentioned in the books for those dances, but can't find the same note for samba

From practical side, it's not easy to make that for the lady wearing heels, especially not in samba where there is some bounce. But even in rumba and cha cha, I'm not really happy watching those girls making more than a meter long steps and still trying to do it by the book (straight leg, over the ball of the foot). Books were written long ago when the steps were shorter so in that case it makes sense to me, but in the present form - not that much. Also, during voltas, legs are a kind of crossed, so trying straightening the knees, even for a moment, doesn't make much sense to me

From historical side, hard to see much straight legs in cuban dances where this international latin originated from. Looks like more of a balet influence to me and tendency to show some clear lines. Tangotime could explain this with much more detail, as my knowledge here is quite incomplete

My personal opinion about that - it's nice to see the contrast between relatively straight leg and bent leg during the dance, but trying to apply some rules where it doesn't make much sense is questionable

Jut my 0.02€ - as I said, I'm mostly of of this recently, so don't take this seriously

 

[ajiboyet]

2) as my first pro, and no doubt the 2 who have followed him would say, "you can break the rules once everyone knows that you know them"

Ah. This, my dears, is probably the most important of all the rules.

 

[Angel HI]

1)....which my internet sevrice provides free of cost, lol...

That's funny.

1)... but I was also told to straighten both legs on the "a" before the 2 also....

I would.

 

[Partner Dancer]

I don't quite see how that is relevant...

It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, missing the big picture while focused
on the minutae. If the Samba [or any dance, really] is danced well, with truly good
partner connection (which is rare), then the legwork [and footwork/bodywork] will
"just happen." It's interesting to dwell on legwork variations, but if the body weight
is in the wrong place(s), then fancy footwork is irrelevent. IMHO, of all the socially-done
dances, Samba is the most difficult for lead+follow, but they don't teach (and probably
don't know) how connection is achieved while moving the body.

 

[vit]

Well, it depends. We have social and competitive dancers on the forum, so answers for various questions here are different for these groups. In my opinion, we should divide what is needed for dance to work "good enough", which is essential for social dancing, from what is needed to satisfy the judges on a competition, meaning your dance should also be a nice representative of a particular genre and interesting to watch

In case of competitive dance, it can work perfectly well for you and your dance partner, but it doesn't mean it will actually look as expected by adjudicators, as many things won't "just happen" the way they like them. So you can dance on latin competition for instance cha cha in salsa style, with bent legs etc, but even if you have better body movement and connection than other couples, you won't see the final. That's how it is

 

[caw]

It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, missing the big picture while focused
on the minutae. If the Samba [or any dance, really] is danced well, with truly good
partner connection (which is rare), then the legwork [and footwork/bodywork] will
"just happen." It's interesting to dwell on legwork variations, but if the body weight
is in the wrong place(s), then fancy footwork is irrelevent. IMHO, of all the socially-done
dances, Samba is the most difficult for lead+follow, but they don't teach (and probably
don't know) how connection is achieved while moving the body.

I agree that lead and follow is very important, and I do focus on that. But today, I'm focusing on arranging the deck chairs. While they may not be the most important part of the ship, I don't want my ship to have ugly deck chairs either.

Well, it depends. We have social and competitive dancers on the forum, so answers for various questions here are different for these groups. In my opinion, we should divide what is needed for dance to work "good enough", which is essential for social dancing, from what is needed to satisfy the judges on a competition, meaning your dance should also be a nice representative of a particular genre and interesting to watch

In case of competitive dance, it can work perfectly well for you and your dance partner, but it doesn't mean it will actually look as expected by adjudicators, as many things won't "just happen" the way they like them. So you can dance on latin competition for instance cha cha in salsa style, with bent legs etc, but even if you have better body movement and connection than other couples, you won't see the final. That's how it is

Let me clarify then. I am talking about competitive.

For further discuss, I want to re-check the rule you mention. Can you let me know who (or any document) requires you to straighten the free leg (in volta and bota fogo) before drag it put weight on it.

I think that a dance not only know the "rule" but also know what reason you follow the "rule", if you not follow the "rule", what happen?

I have been told this by many coaches, and nobody has ever said the contrary. In fact, just two weeks ago at dance camp lydia petrigova taught a class on samba where she empasized it.

Furthermore, it is written in Geoffrey Hearn's "A technique of advanced latin-american figures" on page 78

Bota fogo (commencing with weight on LF)
...
6. Projecting body weight from RF, straighten R knee, turning to R, LF to side with part weight on ball of foot, pelvic area extended, hips turning to L to end L hip raised, lower rib cage slightly to R (Count a)

and Volta (moving to L)
...
5. Continue to move body weight to side, straighten R knee, rising to ball of RF, pelvic area extended, hips com to rotate to R (count &)

 

[vit]

Yes, from your previous posts I understood that your questions are from competitive side, that's why I wrote the last post

You are correct about Hearn's book (didn't check that one, but general sections in Laird's and ISTD book). I also have that DVD, where the German lady is demonstrating those figures straightening the knees just before touching the floor, as stated in descriptions. I also checked other Slavik's video (innovation samba) where they are putting much more effort to straighten the knees than in Basic with passion video. So yes, it looks like preferred way, although not obeyed by all. And certainly a good way to cover more floor

Here are some things to consider. Some demonstrations (like in advanced LA figures video) are slow motion. In real speed, available time to straighten the leg and bend it back is quite shot; you have to start bending your knee again slightly before actually touching the floor with the foot, to avoid jerky movement of both leg and body, but not too early, to avoid jive-like flicking movement of the legs (as sometimes happens to Slavik in innovation video). And it would be interesting to see real speed demo of mentioned lady, as I'm not very satisfied with her demos overall (not very natural body movement at all, visibly dominantly one sided body movement in some rumba figures etc)

 

[vit]

Correct, it is about standing leg in that description, I was too quick with an answer.
But the lady in that video indeed straightens the moving leg before stepping.

Of course, point in samba is in nice body action