Walk Walk or Triple Triple

Phil

New Member
Hi,

I have recently taken up WCS, - I have been told that my basics are good.. - so as you might imagine, I am trying to progress onwards by trying to piece all the pieces together and make sense of this dance in order to progress from beginner to intermediate.

As I say, I'm happy with the basic 6 & 8 count patterns, - I have done a few intermediate lessons which are all well and good, - but one thing I don't understand is, when should you walk-walk, and when to triple?

If i'm shown a new pattern, of course i'm shown when to do what.. - but I dont want to be doing set-patterns forever.. - I would like to expand on what i'm being shown, play with the music etc.. - but how does one (both myself & my Follower) know when to walk-walk or triple step?

Its my understanding that we both need to do the same else we'll both end up on the same foot (instead of opposite feet).

:confused:

I hope this post makes sense! :D
 
Hello, Phil!

Hi,

I have recently taken up WCS, - I have been told that my basics are good.. - so as you might imagine, I am trying to progress onwards by trying to piece all the pieces together and make sense of this dance in order to progress from beginner to intermediate.

As I say, I'm happy with the basic 6 & 8 count patterns, - I have done a few intermediate lessons which are all well and good, - but one thing I don't understand is, when should you walk-walk, and when to triple?

If i'm shown a new pattern, of course i'm shown when to do what.. - but I dont want to be doing set-patterns forever.. - I would like to expand on what i'm being shown, play with the music etc.. - but how does one (both myself & my Follower) know when to walk-walk or triple step?

Its my understanding that we both need to do the same else we'll both end up on the same foot (instead of opposite feet).

:confused:

I hope this post makes sense! :D

Phil, Welcome to Dance Forums!!!
 
I'm sure more authoritative answers will come along, but...
it's been my experience that
a) traveling steps are generally walk-walk
b) triple steps always come in pairs
c) it's all up to you, but you have to lead it, your partner has to feel the timing of your weight changes
d) if your partner goes off and does something you're not leading, be patient, and learn to follow her lead so you can be on time with the right steps when you take the lead back
 
Hi, Phil. Welcome to DF.

when should you walk-walk, and when to triple?

Practically all "patterns" start with a walk walk.
One consistent bit of adivse as to when you do the first step of the walk walk is to do it on a "down beat".
Without getting too much into it, listen for the end of a phrase in the music.
It's like listening to someone talk. With most people you can pretty much hear the end of a sentence. And the you can hear the beginning of the next sentence.
The musical equivalents are the bar, phrases, down beat, etc.
You won't ALWAYS be starting at the beginning of a phrase, but it's something to listen for and sync up with.

Its my understanding that we both need to do the same else we'll both end up on the same foot (instead of opposite feet).

The more you "improvise" the greater the chances are that you won't always be doing the same foot work.
BUT, the best?/easiest place to get back on the "same" page (or opposite feet in this same) is your anchor step.
Most "patterns" end with an "anchor in place" for both partners. Even if you are improvising, and probably especially if you are, your partner should be able to feel you anchoring, and do the same.
Once you've anchored, you can start with a walk walk.
Again, if you can match this up with the end of, and beginning of a phrase in the music, so much the better.


My attention has recently shifted to WCS, and I hope you'll be willing to "compare notes". So, here's a couple of questions.

Have you been taught a "starter step", and how many counts is it?
How are you being taught to anchor?
 
Thanks for the welcomes!

Cheers Lorenzof, some interesting tips there - much appreciated :)


Hi Steve :)

Starting the downbeat with a walk-walk makes sense.

And, (in short) - what you're saying is that it's not the end of the world if our footwork differs, as its easily recoverable from anchoring (and then consequently walk walk).



Yes, i'm happy to compare notes if I can be of any help :)

I have been taught a couple of starter steps, dont know if you want the full details but here they are!

First one is a 4 count:
Closed position - triple to the left (together), then I lead her back to triple away whilst I triple in place.

Second one is a 6 count:
Closed position, lead her towards me down the slot, I move out the slot (as well as down it!) for 2 (walk-walk) (remaining in closed).
Triple sending her back down the slot where she came from (still in closed).
Triple again still in closed position, slightly moving up the slot with her (still in closed) (ready for some sort of LSP).

I haven't been given a huge amount of information on anchoring actually. The main point made to us is to sit back into it from the core of our bodies (by *almost* sticking our bums out!), - and seek tension created from moving the core of our bodies away from each other. During the beginner lesson we're told not to rotate our feet or hips whilst we're practicing basics, - but to keep our hips facing our partners if you see what I mean (so we're not achoring side on to our partners) - think this is just so we get the basics right.

I'd be interested to know why you ask.. :)
 
Basically you'll triple when you feel leverage or compression. Or maybe phrased better, when you lead your follower into leverage or compression. A more advanced answer is that you triple when you need or want to. Yeah, I know that isn't very useful.

I wouldn't get too hung up on it as it is one of those things that will come with time.
 
Check out the original music thread in this section to get some idea how much time I've put into researching this dance.
Now, mix lessons taken in truck stops, country bars, and evening recreatin programs with about 15 years of dancing. Add insatiable curiousity about what someone like Skippy Blair who's been teaching the dance since 1953 would add to my knowledge of, and ability to do, West Coast Swing.
It's honky tonk meets studio.
So, since I'm sort of trying to recreate my WCS, hopefully making it better, I've been studying up on the history of even basic moves.
In short, I'm just curious!
 
As I say, I'm happy with the basic 6 & 8 count patterns, - I have done a few intermediate lessons which are all well and good, - but one thing I don't understand is, when should you walk-walk, and when to triple?

If i'm shown a new pattern, of course i'm shown when to do what.. - but I dont want to be doing set-patterns forever.. - I would like to expand on what i'm being shown, play with the music etc.. - but how does one (both myself & my Follower) know when to walk-walk or triple step?

Its my understanding that we both need to do the same else we'll both end up on the same foot (instead of opposite feet).

Wheee...!

OK - point the first: you don't need this yet. We're talking overdose of run-before-you-can-walk.

Point the second: there are much more interesting ways to break out of "set-patterns" than jacking with your feet.

Point the third: if you want to break out of the dull routine of standard footwork, there are already ways of varying/dressing-up/disguising the standard double and triple rhythm patterns without needing to actually change them.

I'd personally recommend at least two years of practice before you start coloring outside the lines here.



But, you didn't ask any of that.

A bit of vocabulary I find useful: think about the dance in units of two beats. Walk-walk fits into two beats, and has an even number of weight changes. So that's an even unit. "Triple" is three weight changes in two beats, so that's an odd unit.

Most of the time, leader and follower stay together by dancing the same number of weight changes in a unit. But the math still works if one partner adds or takes away two weight changes (my partner dances a triple, while I take a single step).

So you can stay "opposite footed" while doing different footwork.

However, staying opposite footed isn't necessary by any means. The most common form of this is jokingly referred to as "advanced footwork". Advanced footwork usually ends up looking like the leader isn't doing any footwork at all (Student: "what's the leader's footwork for this pattern?" Instructor: "One .... Six").

(Part of the joke here is that it is advanced - all of your lead still needs to be there, you can't cheat by using your feet. But mostly it's advanced because it's lazy).

The trick, or at least a big part of the trick, is learning to separate your lead from your footwork. Dancing in open position, the only thing that your follower feels is your hands - if you can move your feet without changing the way your hands move, then you can do anything you want with your feet without disturbing partner.

A good drill for this is to hook a bungie cord to a partially open door. Hold the cord in one hand slightly stretched, and start moving around - if the cord or the door moves, that tells you that you are disturbing your lead. With practice, you can move to anywhere you can reach, at any speed, with any footwork, without your hand actually moving. Don't forget to practice with each hand.


OK, next part: there exists an idea called a pattern extension, which sticks an extra pair of beats into the middle of a pattern. For example, I can turn a 6-beat side pass into an 8-beat side pass if I can get partner to dance walk-walk walk-walk triple-step triple step. How does that work? there are two cues. One is relative body position - not so important for this discussion. The other is that my lead doesn't tell her to shift gears from walking steps to triple steps. In other words, there's just the tiniest hint of an acceleration in the connection to tell her "triple now", and if I take that out, I can indicate to her that she should stay in walks.

One place where you can see this idea illustrated is the "syncopated triple". The default triple step has a step ball-change rhythm; the extra step comes before the second beat of the unit. A common syncopation has the dancer instead putting the extra step before the first beat of the unit; ball-change step. The follower is usually considered to be able to do these at her own discretion, but they can be lead.

In other words, she's switching from walk walk / step ball change to walk walk ball change step. If you squint at that, you'll find it looks an awful lot like walk / step ball change / walk. So the leader can ask her to do this by taking his "you should do a triple now" hint and moving it up one beat early in the pattern.

In addition to the actual notion of the lead, there's the problem of matching the follower's expectations. In other words - when we are staying in the set-patterns, some of them are 6 count, some are 8-count? How is the follower supposed to know which is which - especially when the patterns are almost the same up to that point?

The classic example here is a closed whip versus a turning basic. The answer has to do with where the follower steps on count 4. If she's stepping toward the leader on count 4 (as in a whip), she'll be expecting a walk-walk next. If she's stepping away from the leader (because she's already past him), she'll be expecting her anchor triple. (Note: these are learned, but not necessarily conscious expectations).

So these two ideas get put together - she knows to triple because she's getting a lead t triple AND because you've placed her on the floor in a place where triples make sense.


All of the above is purely mechanics - how to make it happen. A much harder question is "how to know whether I should lead a triple or a walk?" That leads into a discussion of musicality....

At it's core, musicality is changing your dance to match the music that you hear.

You stick a triple here because this bit of music has "more" energy than the previous bit, and you want to match that with your movement. You deliberately remove a triple there to call attention to the fact that the music has throttled down.

Definitely not something you over do - we don't normally dance an entire song in walks; rather you'll dance normal rhythms most of the time, so that the changes stand out better from the basics around them.

The guiding stars here are much the same as those we use to decide which pattern is the right one to do now: is the music building or falling, high or low contrast, is there a particular metric accent I want to bring to the foreground, etc.




That's the high level answer, anyway.


Again, I'd emphasize that normally you'll already have a lot of great dances under your belt before you need to make this a conscious part of your dancing.
 
Dancing can be very obessessive! :D :D

Wow - fantasic post Dancelf :)

All this information is wonderful, - I love it. I appreciate that much of it I don't need to consciously put into my dancing, - but I DO find knowing as much as possible does help piece the pieces together... - with background knowledge sitting in the back of my mind, I'll have more lightbulb moments as I learn in class & freestyle, - and when I am ready to progress my dancing, certain things won't be completely new to me which will I think help me to make more sense of them when the time comes.

As for improvising my dancing, - thinking on it, I guess my main motivation was to learn when a walk-walk or triple SHOULD happen - rather than remembering the footwork to a specific pattern... - if I know when either SHOULD take place then it'll be easier for me to remember new patterns (as make it easier for me to add further variations without getting lost in footwork).


Anyway Dancelf - thanks so much for taking the time, I will read your post a good few more times so it all sinks in!

Much appreciated.
 
Hi,

I have recently taken up WCS, - I have been told that my basics are good.. - so as you might imagine, I am trying to progress onwards by trying to piece all the pieces together and make sense of this dance in order to progress from beginner to intermediate.

As I say, I'm happy with the basic 6 & 8 count patterns, - I have done a few intermediate lessons which are all well and good, - but one thing I don't understand is, when should you walk-walk, and when to triple?

If i'm shown a new pattern, of course i'm shown when to do what.. - but I dont want to be doing set-patterns forever.. - I would like to expand on what i'm being shown, play with the music etc.. - but how does one (both myself & my Follower) know when to walk-walk or triple step?

Its my understanding that we both need to do the same else we'll both end up on the same foot (instead of opposite feet).

:confused:

I hope this post makes sense! :D

No, you and your follower don't need to do the "same" thing - i.e., she could do two steps (walk-walk) while you do three (triple step). If you're on the wrong foot, you can recover by doing a small, quick step in place on the "and" count to switch feet, then resume your rhythm.

There are tons of footwork and rhythm variations for the first two counts and for the anchor step, in other words at the beginning and end of the pattern are good places to get creative. Sometimes it looks cooler if you have a good follower and she picks up on what you're doing. But it's not necessary.

The important thing is to keep leading. If you want her to go forward, make sure you lead her forward, no matter what your feet are doing. If you're anchoring, that means, as you described, pulling your core back. Anchoring, (or leading, for that matter), doesn't mean footwork. You can do all kinds of different footwork depending on the music. Leading is done with your body. I hope that helps. :)
 
It's honky tonk meets studio.
So, since I'm sort of trying to recreate my WCS, hopefully making it better, I've been studying up on the history of even basic moves.
In short, I'm just curious!

Steve,

I'm curious about what led you to try to recreate your WCS, what you are discovering along the way, who is helping you, and how it is going... my dance partner and I have been on that road ourselves. It is an interesting, often challenging and sometimes frustrating journey!
 
It is an interesting, often challenging and sometimes frustrating journey!

That's for sure!
You should have been there at times during those 4 days.

I've tried to lay out some of it in a previous post. How often do you get a chance to learn from someone who was involved with a specific dance almost from the time it came into being? Buddy Schwimmer is going to Mississippi, and folks have a chance to learn from the guy who created Nite Club 2 Step.

Skippy Blair learned to teach "Western Swing" from the Arthur Murray studios in LA, started making changes, including the name, and has been at it ever since. She's not in it alone, by any means, and has lots of associates.

One version of WCS history is that is "escaped" from the studios and became something really cool. Well, don't know about that. One thing that "is written" is that it was introduced to country western circles in the 80s. (Well, it became big all over the States in the 80s, I think, based on out put of books, tapes, etc.)
Turns out that there is evidence that "country people" were doing "jitterbug" in the 40s to Western Swing in Los Angeles. And in the 50s at least one rockabilly song refered to people "jitterbuging", and it looks like they were doing WCS in Bakerfield in the 50s to a "country" band, and they did it to a Gene Vincent song on film, and Western Swing only went away as much as mainstream Big Band swing.
So, how much does CW West Coast differ from "Studio" West Coast?
A lot, I found out.

What I had found in my own dancing here in Portland, was that some women had a problem with my "style" of WCS. Others didn't and don't. I've danced in San Antonio, Vegas, and now LA; and all the "Country" people have a similar approach to the dance.
The "Westies"? They're different. And most of them don't stick around very long.

It's pretty easy to spot the people that didn't learn WCS in CW venues.
It's also easy to spot the more studio trained people who come to CW, because they bring styling things that just look out of place.
(Recent ballroomer complained about her boots and not being able to do this or that. I tried to explain to her that CW styling comes in part from wearing boots rather than "dance shoes".)

One fun challenge is to be able to dance different styles of the same dance, and that is part of my motivation.

I don't know if this answers your question. Maybe I shouldn't have written "reinvent"? There's just a whole tangle of motivations.
I feel like I've written a bunch and maybe not said much???
 
Hey, Steve, if you can clarify a couple things for me, I think I'll get what you wrote!

What do you mean by "studio" WCS? "Ballroom studio" or WCS-centric/specialized studio/instruction? Where do you classify Skippy Blair?

What do you mean by this statement? "The "Westies"? They're different. And most of them don't stick around very long." Do you mean that WCS dancers don't stick around long where, in the Country Western venues? (Funny, I never hear diehard WCS dancers call themselves "Westies"...).

Our challenges are to adapt from the 1990s foundation, and style of instruction, to really pursue "contemporary" styling. Once again, back to basics, basics, basics... Our new-ish instructor reminds us that the "oldfashioned" styling and philosophy isn't wrong, just different. What we really value is the flexibility and adaptability to dance with different people- and as we change and improve, how does it change our experience on the social dance floor with other people.

Ok, I think we have officially hijacked the thread... sorry about that!
 
"The "Westies"? They're different. And most of them don't stick around very long."
The styling, and actual dynamics of the dance are different than what they have been taught. And frankly, most of the guys where I dance couldn't dance in time to the music if their lives depended on it.
So, yeah, they show up maybe a few times, and they don't come back. Of course that's true of most people who drop in to check it out.

My instruction from mid 90s featured lots of two steps back for the man, for instance. GSTDA West Coast 101 uses almost all back, forward for the man. It's pretty much a rock step by another name.
So, if I step back twice, I've asked the woman to move that much farther than she is used to if the man almost always rocks in place.
There was reference to the woman doing run run run during the intensive, as something that Tom Mattox in LA taught back then. Well, that corresponds to the man's second step backwards.

The idea, too, that after the first step off off the anchor there is no longer any "tension" (resistence leverage, whatever) in the connection is way different than how we dance. To me it almost feels like two people doing their parts separately while holding hands.

Those are two examples.

Regarding studio, ballroom, etc.

Well, to Skippy, GSTDA, etc. what they teach is West Coast Swing.
It was very interesting that, after a fairly critical review of how I dance (that was why I was there, after all) I went to Cowboy Country where one woman said, after hearing why I was in LA, etc, "Studio dancers don't know how to have fun."
So, that's where I got the "studio" thing.

If you go to CW venues, you see that there can be lots of people doing WCS that aren't Westies who go to WCS or "Swing" events. Numbers? don't have any to work with. At Cowboy Country only a small % of folks did West Coast. In Portland, many people do WCS at the country places, although it's recognized as the hardest dance to learn.


This is GSTDA/Blair definition of
BALLROOM SWING -
A form of West Coast Swing that is different from that used by the general West Coast Swing dance community. Ballroom Swing usually refers to a STYLE of West Coast Swing that uses a "Coaster" step at the end of each pattern, seen mainly in the Ballroom community.

And, speaking of Coaster vs Anchor. let me say that I NEVER heard anyone talk about being in 3rd position in a country place!
(I think it was Jenny who pointed out recently that an anchor isn't defined by foot position. Skippy writes the same, but you wouldn't know it based on those 4 days I had!


ANCHOR (or ANCHOR UNIT) -
(1) An Anchor is NOT a foot position and not a Rhythm. It is a partner connection in West Coast Swing, achieved when both partners place their CPB (Center Point of Balance) behind the heel of the forward foot.

See http://www.swingworld.com/dance_dictionary.htm for more.


And, Laure Haile's definition of a coaster step was different than the current definition.

Lauré Haile, defined a "Coaster Step" as cross forward place, or back together side, or back forward back. <ref>Dance Book. Lauré Haile. 195?. page 5. Note - Haile uses her "Dance Code" to describe these steps</ref>

So, how does the styling differ for you?
 

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