Weight change in the cross
- Thread starter Peaches
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bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
Peaches said:
no, no, no; its Lawrence.
Thinking.... Thinking....
When we use words, sometimes we get bogged down in the meanings.
Well, if you "wait" for input after you've moved your left foot over your right, that's a good thing.
"Center" is easiest to feel when you dance close embrace / apliado / milonguero. Even in something as simple as leading or following a weight change, you are sending/receiving a message to move your "center of gravity" the distance equivalent to your weight being entirely on one foot or the other. (Keeping the weight on the inside edge of your foot makes this feel more definative to your partner.)
"Trusting" that your partner's feet are where they are supposed to be works, but knowing where they are is much, much, better. When we walk or dance by ourselves, we know where our feet are. When your basic technique is good, and your partner's is, too, you KNOW where your partner's feet are. One body, four legs. (or is it one heart?)
When we use words, sometimes we get bogged down in the meanings.
Well, if you "wait" for input after you've moved your left foot over your right, that's a good thing.
"Center" is easiest to feel when you dance close embrace / apliado / milonguero. Even in something as simple as leading or following a weight change, you are sending/receiving a message to move your "center of gravity" the distance equivalent to your weight being entirely on one foot or the other. (Keeping the weight on the inside edge of your foot makes this feel more definative to your partner.)
"Trusting" that your partner's feet are where they are supposed to be works, but knowing where they are is much, much, better. When we walk or dance by ourselves, we know where our feet are. When your basic technique is good, and your partner's is, too, you KNOW where your partner's feet are. One body, four legs. (or is it one heart?)
Peaches said:
This thread had gotten me conscious about cruzada. Using the 8CB, after she makes the cross I close with my right foot on 5. At the end of 5, my feet are parallel but the right foot is slightly behind and bearing the weight. We are leaning towards each other with her weight on the left foot, right foot tucked in behind left (alternately taps her left toe and heel in long pauses). There is also a slight counterclockwise rotation to face the line of dance. I tried it with my instructor as a follow and it is quite hard or impossible to put weight on the right leg if one is in crossed position and leaning forwards. This is the way we do it and somehow it works for us most of the time.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Your reply has gotten me thinking. ;-)
When she's crossing her left leg in front, how far back does she cross it? As in, are the toes of her left foot in front of the toes of her (supporting) right? Even with? Further back than? Does she cross with as straight of a leg (left/crossing) as possible?
I hope you don't take this as picking on you, or criticising. I'm honestly just trying to understand, and to see where the differences are coming from.
OK, with you so far...FTL said:
So, you're combining closing your right leg to your left with a weight change, is what it sounds like. But, you could just close your right leg and NOT transfer the weight. Or, at least, not transfer the weight right away, depending on how you want to play with the music. Or, lead a rebound, or (possibly? will some leader please tell me if it's possible?) a volcada.FTL said:
Do you dance apilado? If not, what do you mean by leaning towards each other? More than the usual tango stance? I don't find my "lean" changes any in the cruzada. Personally, I find it extremely inconvenient to transfer my weight to my crossed (left) foot without "popping" my right leg out behind me.FTL said:
When she's crossing her left leg in front, how far back does she cross it? As in, are the toes of her left foot in front of the toes of her (supporting) right? Even with? Further back than? Does she cross with as straight of a leg (left/crossing) as possible?
Do you rotate after leading the cross, or is part of the actual lead for it?FTL said:
Hmmm...you got me on this one. I wonder what we're each doing differently, because I could stand there on my right leg, with the left crossed over, all day long without much of a problem.FTL said:
I hope you don't take this as picking on you, or criticising. I'm honestly just trying to understand, and to see where the differences are coming from.
1. ..... So, you're combining closing your right leg to your left with a weight change, is what it sounds like. But, you could just close your right leg and NOT transfer the weight. Or, at least, not transfer the weight right away, depending on how you want to play with the music. Or, lead a rebound, or (possibly? will some leader please tell me if it's possible?) a volcada.
Ans: Yes, especially if I am about to deviate from the 8CB, say forward 8 with right leg displacement. From cruzada to volcada I simply exaggerate the rotation counterclockwise while moving my base away from her base while continuing the rotation. It is like calecita except for the extreme lean.
2.....Do you dance apilado? If not, what do you mean by leaning towards each other? More than the usual tango stance? I don't find my "lean" changes any in the cruzada. Personally, I find it extremely inconvenient to transfer my weight to my crossed (left) foot without "popping" my right leg out behind me.
Ans. I don't think it's apilado* although we are in close embrace most of the time with a forward lean resulting in light pressure on my partners left lateral pectoral area. The forward lean stance is balanced and not dependent for support on the opposing partner. If you are slightly leaning forward while stepping back with your right leg on 4 followed by dragging your left leg infront of your right leg on 5 there seems to be a tendency to transfer your weight on the front crossed left leg.
*Sorry, I get lost with the definition of terms. My instructor rarely names the elements or patterns she teaches. That is probably to my advantage because there is some language barrier and it may cut into my instruction time if we use words instead of actions. She calls it traditional salon style.
3....When she's crossing her left leg in front, how far back does she cross it? As in, are the toes of her left foot in front of the toes of her (supporting) right? Even with? Further back than? Does she cross with as straight of a leg (left/crossing) as possible?
Ans. I am not so sure but probably 1/2 to 3/4 of the left foot is anterior to the right. The crossing left leg appears straight because she drags quite often. I am not also sure if that's just her style.
4....Do you rotate after leading the cross, or is part of the actual lead for it?
Ans. She had already made the cross and I am stepping on 5. It is our way of curving 8CB to be in the line of dance.
5...Hmmm...you got me on this one. I wonder what we're each doing differently, because I could stand there on my right leg, with the left crossed over, all day long without much of a problem.
Ans. Could you lean against a wall on a cruzada with your left foot halfway forward than your right? Where is the majority of the weight and how much weight can you put on your right leg?
6....I hope you don't take this as picking on you, or criticising. I'm honestly just trying to understand, and to see where the differences are coming from.
Ans. Not at all. I am just sharing what we do and it may not be even correct. What we are doing may just be her own style or a style limited to a specific area in Argentina.
Ans: Yes, especially if I am about to deviate from the 8CB, say forward 8 with right leg displacement. From cruzada to volcada I simply exaggerate the rotation counterclockwise while moving my base away from her base while continuing the rotation. It is like calecita except for the extreme lean.
2.....Do you dance apilado? If not, what do you mean by leaning towards each other? More than the usual tango stance? I don't find my "lean" changes any in the cruzada. Personally, I find it extremely inconvenient to transfer my weight to my crossed (left) foot without "popping" my right leg out behind me.
Ans. I don't think it's apilado* although we are in close embrace most of the time with a forward lean resulting in light pressure on my partners left lateral pectoral area. The forward lean stance is balanced and not dependent for support on the opposing partner. If you are slightly leaning forward while stepping back with your right leg on 4 followed by dragging your left leg infront of your right leg on 5 there seems to be a tendency to transfer your weight on the front crossed left leg.
*Sorry, I get lost with the definition of terms. My instructor rarely names the elements or patterns she teaches. That is probably to my advantage because there is some language barrier and it may cut into my instruction time if we use words instead of actions. She calls it traditional salon style.
3....When she's crossing her left leg in front, how far back does she cross it? As in, are the toes of her left foot in front of the toes of her (supporting) right? Even with? Further back than? Does she cross with as straight of a leg (left/crossing) as possible?
Ans. I am not so sure but probably 1/2 to 3/4 of the left foot is anterior to the right. The crossing left leg appears straight because she drags quite often. I am not also sure if that's just her style.
4....Do you rotate after leading the cross, or is part of the actual lead for it?
Ans. She had already made the cross and I am stepping on 5. It is our way of curving 8CB to be in the line of dance.
5...Hmmm...you got me on this one. I wonder what we're each doing differently, because I could stand there on my right leg, with the left crossed over, all day long without much of a problem.
Ans. Could you lean against a wall on a cruzada with your left foot halfway forward than your right? Where is the majority of the weight and how much weight can you put on your right leg?
6....I hope you don't take this as picking on you, or criticising. I'm honestly just trying to understand, and to see where the differences are coming from.
Ans. Not at all. I am just sharing what we do and it may not be even correct. What we are doing may just be her own style or a style limited to a specific area in Argentina.
FTL wrote,
"I tried it (left foot across right foot in a cross) with my instructor as a follow and it is quite hard or impossible to put weight on the right leg if one is in crossed position and leaning forwards."
Actually it is possible to do this. And if you do it enough, and get the feel of it, it will feel quite "natural". I hope your instructor can do it. I will on occasion practice weight changes back and forth between the crossed and uncrossed foot. It is helpful to imagine what could be led out of this position, and also what I could do from here as a leader.
Even getting your feet into this position isn't very natural. Try it with someone who hasn't learned about it.
I'd be willing to bet that your instructor is "just crossing" for you at this point. Actually, there are reports that there are plenty of dancers in Argentina who do this.
As Peaches asked, yes, rather than ask the woman to put her weight on the crossed left foot, the can lead move away from the weighted right foot to do the volcada. As I have written before, I only attempt this if the woman feels like she has her weight totally on that right foot, and doesn't have the momentum to move any of her weight onto the left.
One of my dance friends recently took a class from one of my past teachers. In it they did an "amague" rather than settle into the cross. You are following. Imagine your left foot moving across your right. If your partner moves towards you and you let that energy go into your left foot, it will send it back rather rapidly. If the lead then moves away from you, just a bit, that foot will begin to move forward. Amague can be defined as a "feint".
This kind of stuff is doable, but only when you have develped a sense of where your partner's weight, feet, etc. are, when you are leading. And on the woman's side, you have to move yourself, and hold yourself in a way that makes it possible for your partner to feel these things.
The better your technique, the easier it is for your parnter to "read" you.
"I tried it (left foot across right foot in a cross) with my instructor as a follow and it is quite hard or impossible to put weight on the right leg if one is in crossed position and leaning forwards."
Actually it is possible to do this. And if you do it enough, and get the feel of it, it will feel quite "natural". I hope your instructor can do it. I will on occasion practice weight changes back and forth between the crossed and uncrossed foot. It is helpful to imagine what could be led out of this position, and also what I could do from here as a leader.
Even getting your feet into this position isn't very natural. Try it with someone who hasn't learned about it.
I'd be willing to bet that your instructor is "just crossing" for you at this point. Actually, there are reports that there are plenty of dancers in Argentina who do this.
As Peaches asked, yes, rather than ask the woman to put her weight on the crossed left foot, the can lead move away from the weighted right foot to do the volcada. As I have written before, I only attempt this if the woman feels like she has her weight totally on that right foot, and doesn't have the momentum to move any of her weight onto the left.
One of my dance friends recently took a class from one of my past teachers. In it they did an "amague" rather than settle into the cross. You are following. Imagine your left foot moving across your right. If your partner moves towards you and you let that energy go into your left foot, it will send it back rather rapidly. If the lead then moves away from you, just a bit, that foot will begin to move forward. Amague can be defined as a "feint".
This kind of stuff is doable, but only when you have develped a sense of where your partner's weight, feet, etc. are, when you are leading. And on the woman's side, you have to move yourself, and hold yourself in a way that makes it possible for your partner to feel these things.
The better your technique, the easier it is for your parnter to "read" you.
Steve Pastor said:
As a follow, the ways I can put weight to my right foot while leaning forward is to bend my crossed left leg or extend my right foot to the point that I am on my toes, or abandon the forward lean and stand upright. We prefer not to do any of these. It is somewhat analogous to a tilted rectangle standing on its short side, one of the long sides touches the ground while the opposite long side is raised from the ground. I wonder if you are really leaning forward if your weight is on the right foot with both legs straight? And once the weight is on the right foot, are you well balanced in a leaning position without support from the the leader? Somehow I am not able to achieve this and neither my partner.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
I'm going to have to give your other post, and Steve's post, a bit more thought before responding to them. But this I can work on...
I'm wondering if if the difference is coming from the bent/straigtened crossed left leg...although I'm also very curious about how much you're leaning. I know that when I cross, my left leg does bend at the knee, but only enough to be able to place my foot as far back as I need to. Pure anatomy tells me that I have to. (My teacher is ver insistent on keeping the feet as close together as possible, and in having the toe of the left/crossed foot slighly further back than the supporting leg.)
This has got me very curious. It seems as though it would much much harder (at least for the follow to take that step and transfer the weight all at once. I don't know why it seems harder than other steps--perhaps because of the fact that it's a cross--but it does. Even when I'm moving very rapidly, I still feel very distinct phases of cruzada--step back and ground with my heel, cross foot over, transfer weight and free the supporting leg, and stretch back (or wherever) to the next step. Without dancing it right now, it just seems like combining the cross step with a weight change right away is unstable. Hmmm...will have to put on shoes and play with this a bit tomorrow.
Hmm...not getting the rectangle analogy, but no matter. I'd say I'm generally leaning forward about as much as I ever am with my weight on the right foot. I know my teacher is very insistent on really grounding with my weight on my right leg, and in keeping my heel on the floor. But, here again, my left leg isn't straight, it's slightly bent. Although with no daylight showing between my legs.
I actually find that I'm more balanced with my weight on my right leg this way. Granted, when I'm just standing there by myself, I straighten up a bit. But with a leader, or a wall, I can maintain the lean. Then again, I've always been taught to use the leader for some support. Not a lot, and certainly not apilado, but to use a bit--the idea of connecting from the floor to my foot, through my leg and into my chest to the lead.
Curious...I'm going to have to play with these ideas...
FTL said:
I'm wondering if if the difference is coming from the bent/straigtened crossed left leg...although I'm also very curious about how much you're leaning. I know that when I cross, my left leg does bend at the knee, but only enough to be able to place my foot as far back as I need to. Pure anatomy tells me that I have to. (My teacher is ver insistent on keeping the feet as close together as possible, and in having the toe of the left/crossed foot slighly further back than the supporting leg.)
This has got me very curious. It seems as though it would much much harder (at least for the follow to take that step and transfer the weight all at once. I don't know why it seems harder than other steps--perhaps because of the fact that it's a cross--but it does. Even when I'm moving very rapidly, I still feel very distinct phases of cruzada--step back and ground with my heel, cross foot over, transfer weight and free the supporting leg, and stretch back (or wherever) to the next step. Without dancing it right now, it just seems like combining the cross step with a weight change right away is unstable. Hmmm...will have to put on shoes and play with this a bit tomorrow.
FTL said:
Hmm...not getting the rectangle analogy, but no matter. I'd say I'm generally leaning forward about as much as I ever am with my weight on the right foot. I know my teacher is very insistent on really grounding with my weight on my right leg, and in keeping my heel on the floor. But, here again, my left leg isn't straight, it's slightly bent. Although with no daylight showing between my legs.
I actually find that I'm more balanced with my weight on my right leg this way. Granted, when I'm just standing there by myself, I straighten up a bit. But with a leader, or a wall, I can maintain the lean. Then again, I've always been taught to use the leader for some support. Not a lot, and certainly not apilado, but to use a bit--the idea of connecting from the floor to my foot, through my leg and into my chest to the lead.
Curious...I'm going to have to play with these ideas...
It sounds like you are dancing with your feet flat on the ground. My partner and most seasoned dancers who bothered to dance with me dance with their heels raised which facilitates the leaning position. At the end of cruzada we are both leaning towards each other, close embrace, her heels raised, left leg crossed and bearing weight, and ready to step forward or to my left most of the time. The way we do it might be different from the rest. Good luck.
I'm taking a vacation in the west coast and if I have a chance take some AT lessons. Maybe I'll get exposed to your style and possibly the technique that Steve is talking about.
I'm taking a vacation in the west coast and if I have a chance take some AT lessons. Maybe I'll get exposed to your style and possibly the technique that Steve is talking about.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
FTL said:
Yes, and no, to the feet flat on the ground thing. When I'm on the ball with things, I do a lot of "rolling through" my feet.
When I step back, I step first with the ball of my foot, and then when i actually transfer weight I let my heel come down and put weight on it. When I take another step back, I "push off" with that heel. I'm not sure how else to write it to make it make sense.
When stepping forward, I bring the unweighted foot through with (as close to) the inside edge as possible until the very end, when I bring my toe up to take a heel lead. If/when I take the next step forward, I let the weight roll through my foot so I push off with the toe of the supporting foot.
As for the heels raised/leaning position--the heels of my feet (as opposed to my shoes) are always raised, because I dance in heels.
Interesting...
No way I would not have both heels and balls of the food on the ground, on the leg where I have my weight. Dancing with the heels in the air IMHO is a (bad) habit you see in dancers who usually dance in heels, when they occasionally take them off - not something desired. If dancing in flats, one should have the feet flat on the ground (but of case not all the time, you roll through the steps as Peaches already has written).
It is my experience that if the woman keeps the head to heel alignment that Blue and Peaches both write about, it is SO much easier to feel when she has stepped. I often wonder who is teaching women to dance on their tip toes. Seeing a woman dance like this does not encourage me to try and dance with her, and I've more or less stopped dancing with the women who do not give me the "tactile feedback" of letting me feel their steps. (Just one of those, I'd rather dance with her, rather than her, kind of things.)
Women teachers often teach in flat shoes, which, I guess works if they are leading. I think I've already written that I could not feel any feedback from Alicia Pons in one lesson (Where was her weight after I led a cruzada? I wish I had been able to talk to her about it. Class time limitations. Non native English speaker.)
It is possible to dance AT without this stuff, but, I think, so much nicer to have it.
Women teachers often teach in flat shoes, which, I guess works if they are leading. I think I've already written that I could not feel any feedback from Alicia Pons in one lesson (Where was her weight after I led a cruzada? I wish I had been able to talk to her about it. Class time limitations. Non native English speaker.)
It is possible to dance AT without this stuff, but, I think, so much nicer to have it.