What are you working on in AT Episode III: The Return of the Tanguero

[Zoopsia59]

my experience has been that giving specific feedback tends to backfire because the real problem is not in what i as the leader feel, but in what she as the follower feels, and those are only marginally related. I can tell her where something is wrong, and why it s wrong at that spot, but what she has to do to fix it is usually somewhere deep in her conceptualization and structure of the dance

This is why feedback like "You feel heavier on the left side" or "When we do this, you feel like you're leaning on me" or "You're so light I can't tell where you are or what foot you're on" or "with every step, it feels like you fall away then come back, then fall away, etc" is the more helpful kind of advice. ("You need to step HERE" is not useful). In that way, what the leader feels IS important. It's not so much about how I do a specific move as about how it feels to lead me in general. It also presents me only with what HE feels, as opposed to trying to tell me how to fix it. (which, as you say, has to come from MY structure and conceptualization in order to work)

E.g. i tend to dance relatively squared off, and my advice for a lot of problems would be to be less in a v and more square - which is completely non-helpful to somebody who likes and wants to dance more v. So neither are good approaches for feedback at a milonga.

I agree that correcting the position of move based on a style preference isn't a good idea. But the sorts of things I mention above would still apply. Too heavy? Not enough resistance? No way to feel where she is? These things are not style specific. (unless we're talking about shared weight vs non-shared weight)

you don't get the proper body mechanics by trying to get the proper body mechanics, but by doing something 10000 times, and the movement that comes naturally when you are completely exhausted is the one that is biomechanically the most efficient one.

Now THIS is useful! Because I can totally agree that trying to get the correct body mechanics has not actually resulted in me having correct body mechanics. I remember a ballet teacher who used to have us do simple barre work until we were ready to drop. (instead of complicated barre routines) His idea was that you do the most you can do, then you do 3 more and that's how you develop strength and stamina. However, I also see your point that once the muscles are totally relaxed through exhaustion, the way they move with the least effort also becomes more apparent. It also points out which muscles are weakest. The ones left to do the work once you are tired may not even be the ones that would be the best for properly executing what you are trying; they're just the strongest ones (possibly because of under-use of the proper ones. ie, usually the core).

I believe that the step from being a good follower to being a great follower is the hardest thing to do in tango. Once a follower has enough of the technique down to follow anything the whole game shifts into something completely different, and there is very little support for that transition, and a lot of followers either drop out or start doing something different within tango when they run up against this barrier.

I can only assume that is where I am now.. trying to make that transition without having any real understanding of what I'm transitioning.

I once heard this described as the leader being the earth, and the follower being the sun and the moon at the same time, following the leader, but being the center of the dance at the same time.

Hmmm....
so the leader is "revolving" around me as the sun, but I am also revolving around him since I am also the moon. (metaphorically)

Tricky. :|

As usual, Gssh, a very valuable contribution to the thread! Thank you!

 

[Subliminal]

Milonga milonga milonga! Dancing on rhythms other than the strong beats. Classic patterns from the milonga masters. All fun stuff.

 

[bastet]

Previous "What are you working on?" threads. (For the newcomers.)

Part 1:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12454

Part 2:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=35223

Lately I've been practicing ganchos again. I have a couple that are fairly social friendly, and can be done in close embrace. It seems the key is the follower's balance... the more in tune with her balance I am, the better the movement. The gancho just "happens" instead of being lead.

I also experimented with Single Axis Turns recently. Felt really awkward at first. I think I have the concept down, but it's hard to make the "swoosh" part feel smooth. Very unnatural feeling right now.

Walking: It all comes back to walking. Lately I've come up with a theory on the walk, and I am looking for ways to test it out. I've come to the conclusion that there are at least two major schools of walking (and probably as many subcategories as there are dancers in the world). The first school is the full change of weight on the beat, with no weight remaining at that moment on the trailing leg. The second school seems to be more oriented toward having a bit of shared weight between your legs on the beat, and a more even fluid step. (Though it's certainly possible to be fluid with the first method, I think you get the characteristic slight up and down motion.)

My theory is that it's possible to dance both styles, and use the amount of weight you transfer on the beat as a stylistic element in musicality. Also, a leader who understands the different kinds of walks could lead the follower to step in a different way depending on the move... for example, ganchos and sacadas are a little easier to pull off if the follower is using even steps instead of sudden steps in the turn.

I also wonder if this is why some followers feel different depending on who they've danced with recently. If they were dancing with an even-stepping leader, and they switch to a sudden-stepping leader, he might notice a difference until she "resets".

Whew. So as always, a lot to think about and work on.

nice post Sub...the "where you are with your weight and the beat" is something i've had taught a couple of times mostly as a musical choice. The way one of my teachers teaches it, he explains it as 3 possibilities in the "tango snapshot" - either on top of the beat (body and foot together), midway ("normal" walking) and slightly behind the beat (foot arrives before body). He calls it rubato as he is a musician and relates it to the musical rubato concept just with the dancer's feet. The slightly behind the beat concept gives the movement a very relaxed feeling.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I heard of an exercise that was interesting to me; shower with your eyes closed, to gain more awareness of your balance.

I'm not sure a wet slippery hard tile surface is the best place to take risks testing your balance.

On the other hand, I suppose the theory is that the falling water helps orient you, or that the walls are close by? If you have a bathtub shower and lose your balance, this could be quite dangerous. Even if you could normally adjust, wet tile is slippery and so is the soap and stuff that's on it when you shower.

However, the basic concept - stand with your eyes closed - is a good one for balance exercises.

 

[bordertangoman]

Additionally i think a lot of tango is body learning - you learn it by doing it, listening honestly to your body, and doing it some more. This is similar to how i have been taught martial arts - you don't get the proper body mechanics by trying to get the proper body mechanics, but by doing something 10000 times, and the movement that comes naturally when you are completely exhausted is the one that is biomechanically the most efficient one. And in some ways tango has mirrored that for me - a lot of things just seem to fall into place after a few years of trying to do my best while dancing socially and trying to be aware of how things feel.
Gssh

I am trying to embrace the approach of Peter Ralston in Zen Body-Being:

The Principles of an Effortlessly Effective Body-Being
Centering:
locating and being able to focus mind and feeling-attention, as well as move the whole body from, the bodies center.
Grounding:
developing a stronger connection and feeling-association with the ground - drawing power from the ground.
Being Whole and Unified:
being capable of feeling every cubic inch of the entire body and learning to unify this whole in awareness and action.
Relaxing:
being able to let go of the mind and muscles and allow the body to attain a natural, open, and unused state.
Being Calm:
learning to allow the mind and attention to be undisturbed by circumstance, and to refrain from creating negative or inappropriate thoughts and reactions.

 

[bordertangoman]

I'm not sure a wet slippery hard tile surface is the best place to take risks testing your balance.

On the other hand, I suppose the theory is that the falling water helps orient you, or that the walls are close by? If you have a bathtub shower and lose your balance, this could be quite dangerous. Even if you could normally adjust, wet tile is slippery and so is the soap and stuff that's on it when you shower.

However, the basic concept - stand with your eyes closed - is a good one for balance exercises.

It should be a cold shower too..

 

[AndaBien]

...
Being Calm:
learning to allow the mind and attention to be undisturbed by circumstance, and to refrain from creating negative or inappropriate thoughts and reactions.

I think this is one of the central concepts of deliberate practice: focused attention and awareness of the outcomes. If one practices mindlessly it may take 1000 repetitions before improvement happens just by blunt force. If one practices mindfully, improvement may take only 100 repetitions.

 

[dchester]

I think this is one of the central concepts of deliberate practice: focused attention and awareness of the outcomes. If one practices mindlessly it may take 1000 repetitions before improvement happens just by blunt force. If one practices mindfully, improvement may take only 100 repetitions.

If I don't see improvement after 10 repetitions, I usually go watch TV, or surf the net.

(I guess that's why I'm online so often)

 

[AndaBien]

If I don't see improvement after 10 repetitions, I usually go watch TV, or surf the net.

Good point. If you don't see improvement within 10 reps, either you aren't focusing well enough with your mind, or you aren't zoomed in enough to the specific problem.

We're not trying to hit fastballs down the 3rd-base line. We're just doing social dancing, and that's relatively easy to improve.

 

[bastet]

If I don't see improvement after 10 repetitions, I usually go watch TV, or surf the net.

(I guess that's why I'm online so often)

dchester, you crack me up...

 

[bordertangoman]

If I don't see improvement after 10 repetitions, I usually go watch TV, or surf the net.

(I guess that's why I'm online so often)

you should try lazy practice; which involves just imagining that you are doing it al well, confidently smoothly and musically, run over it in your mind, then when you come to do it, bingo; its better.

Abstract
The purpose of this study was to investigate the effect of five variations of imagery and physical practice on learning of Basketball free throws in adolescents with mental retardation (AWMR). Forty AWMR were randomly assigned to five groups and performed a variation of practice: physical practice, mental practice, physical practice followed by mental practice, mental practice followed by physical practice, and no practice. The groups exercised the task for 24 sessions. Following training, posttest and retention test were taken. All variations of practice resulted in performance improvement, yet the mental practice followed by physical practice resulted in better improvement. The results suggest that mental practice associated with physical practice results in an outstanding performance improvement in AWMR.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19875270

 

[opendoor]

Re: What are you working on

Simple circular boleos. Dont want to stand chavvy equal weighted, there must be some other ways... closing, shifting, walking to one side.... mmmh

 

[bordertangoman]

Simple circular boleos. Dont want to stand chavvy equal weighted, there must be some other ways... closing, shifting, walking to one side.... mmmh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzmz0IL82I

does this help? Dario leaves a trailing leg for stability...

 

[opendoor]

thanks for this. but it may be at the cost of a really smooth circular counter movement. Will try it out.

 

[bordertangoman]

thanks for this. but it may be at the cost of a really smooth circular counter movement. Will try it out.

Is this more like it - very fluid movement
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