TTanguero
Forum Master
You misunderstand. A milonga isn't a place to practice things, but our dance absolutely develops by dancing.
What comes after tango?
- Thread starter opendoor
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No. We've just evolved, or moved on, into another era of tango. Maybe even an 'after tango' era of 'the dance'. That's certainly observed in other aspects.
TTanguero
Forum Master
To expand on this a little ...
I can't speak about sequences, as I have no interest in those. My privates are focused on fundamentals, and practice sessions are either about a particular technique issue, or at most a type of movement. When dancing in a milonga, I will mostly not be thinking consciously about anything I've learned, beyond an occasional mental checkpoint.
But who I am as a dancer ... my dance style, what's important to me, where I place my focus, how I listen to the music, how I listen to my partners ... that was almost entirely developed in the milongas, by dancing.
Well, I have 5 weeks of paid vacation a year. One week is for X-mass holiday week, two weeks are ordered by my company in summer time (August). One week I need for my personal use over year. What left? Two weeks.
In fact, my brother has beend living in Brisbane for 25 years and I still did not visited him in Australia, reason is the same - time.I fall into this category of being a female follower who began leading in their 20s-30s, and yes, when I lead, I mostly dance with my female friends, and I usually only do so at my local milongas, or at lessons/practicas.
I think this phenomenon of female leaders dancing mostly with people in their own friend group or of their own age, it isn't that they are intentionally excluding others, I think it's in large part because of the challenges of inviting other women to dance: some women simply prefer to dance with men and will only target men with their mirada; women who might be open to dancing with women if they were asked, but who do not know you, will assume you're just a fellow follower and will not look your way when the tanda begins; even in my own community, people seem to forget that I lead - I think women at milongas are used to looking for men's eyes by default, me included, it takes conscious effort to look at the women as well (and to be honest, it's harder to do, as a follower you're doubling the number of faces you're considering now, so I don't really blame people for using gender as a shortcut to role).
Your odds of finding a partner are probably better if you're a woman who mostly or exclusively leads, but if you only lead for fewer than 50% of the tandas then it's going to be hard to find partners unless you resort to asking verbally. I also find that, as a woman of average height who is still working on stability when leading, I can't reliably dance well with any random follower, so at a milonga I try to find people I can attempt to give a satisfying tanda to, and that pool is pretty small. Sometimes there is a tanda I'd like to lead but I can't find a follower for it so I end up sitting it out or accepting an invitation from a leader instead.
Once in a while, if it's simple music and I'm feeling up to it, I'll take a chance on a follower who isn't one of my usuals, but it's quite risky. Many women, even if they accept a cabeceo from you, don't seem that eager to follow another woman, I can feel that their embrace is a bit shy, uneasy, nervous. I'm about average height and build for a woman, and many of them are trying to be super light, I assume that's because I look or feel fragile to them in comparison to the average guy (which is understandable). It takes time and effort to gain their trust, I have to strike the balance between dancing confidently or intensely enough to get them to connect with me and with the music, without going so far that I'll spook them and make them more nervous than they already are; sometimes that's a fun challenge, but that's why most of the women I dance with at the milonga are women I've danced with in group classes or practicas before, I don't want to make anyone feel awkward or self-conscious in a milonga setting.
So, in order to avoid awkward tandas, I am careful with my invitations. I try to invite by cabeceo unless they are a close friend who I know enjoys dancing with me, and since cabeceo rarely works on other random women I end up leading close friends almost exclusively. And then maybe people assume I only lead close friends, so they don't bother looking my way for an invitation, and so it continues... Maybe as we get more dual-role dancers, and those dancers become better dancers, people will change their habitual behaviour of seeking a partner of the opposite gender by default, but for the time being this has been my experience.
Also, just to mention, in my community there are plenty of 40/50+ women who are learning to lead or who have been leading for some years already, I'm actually one of the youngest and newest dual-role dancers around.
My wife tells me similar; it's different being led by a female than a male (body shape, size, bulk). There's then a follower tendancy to go super-light - which you know doesn't help.
And yes, you have to ask anyway as cabeceo doesn't work. Leaders and followers aren't physically separated, and with female dual-role you sometimes have to observe the footwear and know if they change for the role. Now if male dual-role dancers would just don their stilettos as a pre-requisite for following...
I agree. A lot of it makes sense. Very interesting to hear perspective and experience from the other side. A lot of it mirrors thought process of what goes through men’s mind when they are seeking to invite followers.
As far as a woman feeling awkward dancing with another women, at least I haven’t heard any lady express that sentiment. Women are far more comfortable dancing with other women, than the men are with men.
The challenge about cabaceo is very true. It can be a bit confusing if the woman your are trying to mirada is not aware that you lead or want to lead. That’s assuming women are seeking cabaceo. Locally not all women are confident about their cabaceo skills. Many get asked verbally or in your face cabaceo. Introverted ladies who can lead are usually shy of approaching another woman to ask for a tanda verbally. Others when cabaceo isn’t working will go and ask verbally if a woman will want to dance with them. Within same gender asking verbally is considered okay. It avoids doubts of “is he/she really asking me”.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Who knows, maybe with the coming generation. But I doubt that many of the older people can shed their lifelong social conditioning so easily.
But many women think it's great when a man can follow too. So I sometimes lead a male friend so that his light shines brighter on the milonga.
Anyway, here it is also quite common for 40/50+ women to learn to lead. My personal assessment is that some can in between lead reasonably well, better than many men, but in general still a few years of experience away from an optimum.
Almost on topic:
I think this is an effective means of delaying the point at which they have to think about the time after tango for a few more years. Especially when it comes to the number of potential dance partners. But I also hear from women that this allows them to have more influence on the strain on their joints. And it also makes dancing more interesting for them.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I have. I no several who do not like dancing with other women
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
My MO is that the female leaders I dance with 99% of the time ask verbally or make a parody of the cabeceo in your face - strangers or known. Since it supposedly was invented for guys to not lose face, and women’s egos won’t necessarily get (as) bruised if a follower declines, then why bother. I can’t be bothered to scan for female leaders, but I never decline when asked. If I’m new to a place, I might even verbally ask an unknown female leader outright.
My scene is different in that the female leaders here are mostly quite mature women who are aging out of the scene (ha, bringing it back on-topic), and if they still want to dance, they are not going to sit around sulking waiting to be some old dude’s last choice after all the PYTs are taken.
Re: trying to be lighter for a weaker lead; one of my favorite female leaders is tiny and skinny and absolutely not strong, and I, with a stature comparable to most tallish men (I’m 178cm plus 4-5 cm heels), am not the obvious choice for her, yet she says I’m easier to dance with because I don’t rely on her [lack of] strength. I don’t try to make myself lighter but more grounded. But I have to stay on my own axis for sure with her. As with most guys who are a head shorter than me. Not all, though. I dance plenty of off-axis / shared axis stuff with very short guys with good technique and/or strength. My take is that if a very short guy dares to invite me into stuff like volcadas, colgadas, and deep Gavito-style apilado and such, he likely has the technique to pull it off.
But I also dance with plenty of physically old and frail men who are in their ‘late-stage’ tango, and I have to be just as conscious about their lack of strength.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
The good news is that there are enough "PYTs to take"! Until then, at least The Tango itself doesn’t have to worry about what comes after the tango.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Leave some of them for us actual young leaders — you older and (better?) leaders tend to monopolise them!
Then again, I avoid most PYTs unless I'm friends with them or they're enjoyable to dance with — I have really weird tastes in women, so most of them aren't actually pretty for me, which rules out balancing a bad/meh dance with having an attractive girl in my arms.
Not going to say no if they approach me though, that's my policy on any and all followers who are brave enough and actually want to dance with me. It's the 21st century, followers can ask leaders!
It slightly annoys me this idea that as female leaders we should just dispense with the cabeceo, it's as if we're admitting that female leaders are not satisfying enough to dance with to be sought out by followers, as if we are there as the consolation prize for the followers who aren't getting invited by the good dancers.
And maybe, if I'm being completely honest, that is the purpose that I serve right now. My community has more followers than leaders, and I suspect that some followers are just thinking about getting on the dance floor and they might say yes to a female leader mostly because it beats just sitting, and there's actually nothing wrong with that. We all want to get our dancing time in and we can't just sit and wait for the perfect partner forever, but my long term goal is to develop my leading to the point where followers who are after quality tandas are choosing me specifically.
As for verbal invitations, I don't really like them at milongas. I don't like asking and I don't like being asked. The cabeceo, to me, isn't about sparing egos, it's about finding a dance partner I want to dance with and who also wants to dance with me, right now in this moment, and exerting no pressure on them to say yes.
When I first started leading at milongas I had some followers walk up to me and ask me to dance verbally when I wasn't prepared for it. I wasn't expecting to be asked, I wasn't expecting to dance with that person, I wasn't even expecting to dance that tanda. Those were not good tandas.
Asking verbally or with a very blatant cabeceo is ok here, we're quite relaxed, but I try to be more careful when using those strategies, I don't want to exert any pressure or surprise anyone with my request, I just want to signal that I'm available to dance and allow them the chance to signal back, or not. People are too polite here, I'm not sure they can actually say "no".
TTanguero
Forum Master
This is the issue in the UK: we're a polite (though also very creatively rude!*) culture, and most people would say yes when put on the spot with a verbal invitation. It's one of the reasons I'm a very strong supporter of cabeceo as the only means of invitation.
I'm not immune to that social pressure myself. I have accepted verbal invitations when I didn't want to. I'm still working on responding to them with "I prefer to be invited by cabeceo."
*An American colleague once congratulated me for my politeness when I responded to a rude comment with "Thank you for sharing your opinion." I had to explain that this was British for "F*ck off."
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Unfortunately I can't do anything for you as I prefer cabeceo ... and most PYTs seem to have poor eyesight. Since my 60th birthday I'm urgently waiting for age discrimination to be banned in tango so that the PYTs are be obliged to dance with me.Leave some of them for us actual young leaders — you older and (better?) leaders tend to monopolise them!