What comes after tango?

[Miradamiranda]

It slightly annoys me this idea that as female leaders we should just dispense with the cabeceo, it's as if we're admitting that female leaders are not satisfying enough to dance with to be sought out by followers, as if we are there as the consolation prize for the followers who aren't getting invited by the good dancers.

Don’t misread me, dancing with a female leader is not a consolation prize for me. I gladly accept from women by cabeceo, I just don’t bother to focus my laser mirada on someone if I know I can get to dance with her anyway when she wants to. I’m still scanning the room. There are plenty other followers who ‘need’ her to get up from their seats, so I don’t want to abuse her time. I once overheard a mature lady (who is a very good leader but an excellent follower) complain that tonight she had only danced with women.

I suspect that some followers are just thinking about getting on the dance floor and they might say yes to a female leader mostly because it beats just sitting, and there's actually nothing wrong with that.

When I started to learn to lead, other than the fun of a new challenge, well, providing a service to my sitting sisters was one purpose. It wasn’t till I discovered some other scenes in other cities that I got to experience dedicated and ambitious and very good female leaders. Those ladies I seek out and ask verbally or a very unambiguous mirada.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

Here, I can walk 5 minutes to my neighborhood milonga, run by an Argentine

An Argentine who isn't Porteño, didn't grow up with tango, and once tried cross-fading tangos as if tangos were disco.

I have to pay a fortune for my eyeglasses, and full price for all visits to the dentist

<off-topic>

You might consider Bonhomme à lunettes. It was recommended by two people I know.

https://www.bonhommealunettes.org/

I don't know if you tried them. McGill dental clinic charges 50%, but they choose their patients. Patients with limited treatment needs (i.e. less than 4 fillings, no need for crowns, root canal treatment, denture, etc.) are not likely to be accepted for treatment.

https://www.mcgill.ca/dentistry/clinics/undergraduate-teaching-clinic

</off-topic>

 

[Bailango]

*An American colleague once congratulated me for my politeness when I responded to a rude comment with "Thank you for sharing your opinion." I had to explain that this was British for "F*ck off."

so what do you say when you really want to appreciate an opinion.

 

[opendoor]

..An American colleague once congratulated me for my politeness when I responded to a rude comment with "Thank you for sharing your opinion." I had to explain that this was British for "F...

The word “betting” has to be mentioned. Then you know they are serious. Since English people are now quite rare in Central Europe, we are also losing the skills in dealing with them.

 

[Tango Distance]

Many women, even if they accept a cabeceo from you, don't seem that eager to follow another woman

My wife tells me similar; it's different being led by a female than a male (body shape, size, bulk). There's then a follower tendancy to go super-light - which you know doesn't help.

I'm chipping away at learning to follow. It made sense to me to see out instructors or very experienced followers, who also did leading. They all happened to be female, and though highly experienced at following, all had relatively little experience as leaders (they would lead maybe once or twice in a Milonga). I figured with all that following experience, they would be better at teaching me to follow.

I struggled (and still do) learning to follow. I was only doing one-on-one instruction at practicas. I had done no group classes as a follower.

One night, a class was very short on leaders, and it was a beginner class, so I followed. We had 3 very experienced leaders (happened to all be male) in the class. Wow! Following was so easy! The right steps just happened without effort! Another time, a beginner leader (for Tango, he was very experienced in other dance styles) led me. It wasn't as effortless, but it was really fun in that he led me like the way I lead, it was awesome to experience.

My thoughts:

• Experience counts! The more experienced people in leading were better leaders. Apparently, being a good follower doesn't automatically make you a good leader! I certainly know my leader skills didn't and don't translate straight to following!
• I think size counts. I outweighed some of those leading ladies by 2x, and was much closer in mass to the male leaders. Experience counts for more, a tiny lady but expert instructor led me very well one night.
• My dear wife leads me sometimes. It is a case of the blind leading the blind, but it is fun and we have improved a lot. Sssshhh, it's a secret, that learning has been almost 100% at Milongas, without formal instruction.

 

[Tango Distance]

At the milonga, one can definitely develop one's floorcraft, improvisation, adaptation to different dancers and styles of dance, and emergency-handling. One cannot learn or improve new vocabulary

I agree that in general the ideal is to learn in classes and at practicas, and then express those practiced skills at the milonga.

So JiT, you are among friends here. Feel free to confess. Have you really never even once done something new for the first time at a milonga, and it became part of your dance?

Just speaking for myself here:

• This happened more in my earlier days: A mistake in the milonga becomes a neat new step for me. Thankfully I don't make as many mistakes now, read my partner's skill level better, and have better error recovery skills.
• I see someone do something neat at the milonga, and copy it at the milonga.
• I do a brief practice myself, and imagine the follower's steps. Sometimes I do both leader and follower roles all in my head. I then try it at the milonga if the gendanken version went well, and it generally goes well on the first try.
• Here in the Tango Desert, practicas are often full of lower and mid-level followers, so it can be hard to get a follower who can help you with a challenging new step.

 

[Brummbaer]

Have you really never even once done something new for the first time at a milonga, and it became part of your dance?

Oh yes. When younger and naïve. It didn't go well. I had to learn it properly. And practice. And then it became part of the dancing.

I see someone do something neat at the milonga, and copy it at the milonga.

That's different if it's a simple combination of known elements and I think that's a neat way of combining them. Otherwise, with other followers, I'll keep to what they know, or their skill level, and build up through the tanda. With some of a higher skill level, I'll just keep it simple unless they appear to want more. If it's a more complex move or sequence, then maybe some research, some experimentation, maybe even a lesson, and some practice - away from the milonga. Don't want to spoil the fun. Something 'simple', done well, can be a better dance experience. I'm not after points for 'advanced' moves.

 

[TTanguero]

so what do you say when you really want to appreciate an opinion.

We'll engage with what was said.

 

[daisy_r]

I'm chipping away at learning to follow. It made sense to me to see out instructors or very experienced followers, who also did leading. They all happened to be female, and though highly experienced at following, all had relatively little experience as leaders (they would lead maybe once or twice in a Milonga). I figured with all that following experience, they would be better at teaching me to follow.

I struggled (and still do) learning to follow. I was only doing one-on-one instruction at practicas. I had done no group classes as a follower.

One night, a class was very short on leaders, and it was a beginner class, so I followed. We had 3 very experienced leaders (happened to all be male) in the class. Wow! Following was so easy! The right steps just happened without effort! Another time, a beginner leader (for Tango, he was very experienced in other dance styles) led me. It wasn't as effortless, but it was really fun in that he led me like the way I lead, it was awesome to experience.

My thoughts:

• Experience counts! The more experienced people in leading were better leaders. Apparently, being a good follower doesn't automatically make you a good leader! I certainly know my leader skills didn't and don't translate straight to following!
• I think size counts. I outweighed some of those leading ladies by 2x, and was much closer in mass to the male leaders. Experience counts for more, a tiny lady but expert instructor led me very well one night.
• My dear wife leads me sometimes. It is a case of the blind leading the blind, but it is fun and we have improved a lot. Sssshhh, it's a secret, that learning has been almost 100% at Milongas, without formal instruction.

In the end, men's and women's bodies are quite different, and we're accustomed to using them differently. I think that it's possible for women to lead well and for men to follow well, but I think the way in which we have to use our bodies is a bit different. Ideally I'd like to learn to lead from another woman who leads, but if I was a man wanting to learn to follow I'd try to find a male teacher who dances both roles well.

It's funny because when I started learning to lead, many male leaders, who don't follow at all, started to offer to follow me. I think they were trying to be nice/encouraging, or maybe it was just curiosity, either way it was not working well. I will sometimes indulge men who want to learn to follow for a song or two but it is hard for me and hard for them so it gets tiring fairly quickly; so for the aspiring male followers out there, keep that in mind, try dancing with men...

 

[opendoor]

...I think that it's possible for women to lead well and for men to follow well..

So in my community, all the women who lead are really excellent. This does not apply to the majority of male leaders.

..male leaders, who don't follow at all, started to offer to follow me..

I think that theoretically I (leader) can also handle the following role quite well. However, it only really works if I actually dance with a taller man. And that combination doesn't happen that often.

 

[JournalInTime]

So JiT, you are among friends here. Feel free to confess. Have you really never even once done something new for the first time at a milonga, and it became part of your dance?

I've done things that surprised me, if that's what you mean! Whether due to my partner, the ronda, or some urge from the music, I found myself well-placed to move in a way I didn't expect.

Has that ever become part of my dance? Not really . . . these are irreproducible moments, lost in time, like tears in the rain.

This happened more in my earlier days: A mistake in the milonga becomes a neat new step for me.

This is one of those moments I'd deem "irreproducible."

I see someone do something neat at the milonga, and copy it at the milonga.

I definitely don't do this! I guess I'm too proud to do so . . . I want my dance to be my dance. I might learn something from a teacher, or see something and ask a teacher to help me work on a similar element, but I'd never do what I saw someone else do at the place where I saw them do it.

I do a brief practice myself, and imagine the follower's steps. Sometimes I do both leader and follower roles all in my head. I then try it at the milonga if the gendanken version went well, and it generally goes well on the first try.

This happens very often, but it's no longer "for the first time at the milonga," in my view. I don't consider "at classes and prácticas" to be the only valid form of study. Drills alone, videos, reading, lectures, and theory discussions can leave me with enough confidence to dance something at the milonga – especially if it's a sibling or cousin to something I already know.

Here in the Tango Desert, practicas are often full of lower and mid-level followers, so it can be hard to get a follower who can help you with a challenging new step.

I'm spoiled. Along with "you can go to at least one milonga on any given day," we have "you can go to at least one práctica or practilonga on any given day." Between living with an advanced tanguera, having a few intermediate-to-advanced tangueras as close personal friends (I see them socially outside of tango), having accompanied dozens of tangueras in lessons from 2013 to 2107, and helping my coach teach tangueras, my problem when I attend one of these prácticas lies in the realm of possessiveness on the part of those partners. I mean, I have one tanguera who travels just to practice with me, and another who's planning to do so. Spoiled.

 

[JournalInTime]

An Argentine who isn't Porteño, didn't grow up with tango, and once tried cross-fading tangos as if tangos were disco.

Well, I know he's from Mendoza and not from the heart of tango, but I can't say what he did or did not grow up with. He's married to an actual tango champion, and she's the one who really hosts the event – she's one of my favorite partners in the city, too. And he's learned to hire DJs, because he's an organizer, not a DJ, teacher, or anything else like that.

 

[JournalInTime]

from 2013 to 2107

Um . . .

I'm not from the future. That's supposed to be "2017." That's what I get for writing on only one espresso the morning after being out a milonga.

 

[pianistamediano]

Um . . .

I'm not from the future. That's supposed to be "2017." That's what I get for writing on only one espresso the morning after being out a milonga.

Tell me, are the once-PYT followers grumbling about PYTs getting all the dances, AI replications of Pablo Veron, Chicho Frumboli and Aoniken Quiroga making the leaders grumble, and DJs still playing like shite?

(I understand your torpidity - two espressos' worth just make me sleepy!)

 

[Bailango]

In the end, men's and women's bodies are quite different, and we're accustomed to using them differently. I think that it's possible for women to lead well and for men to follow well, but I think the way in which we have to use our bodies is a bit different. Ideally I'd like to learn to lead from another woman who leads, but if I was a man wanting to learn to follow I'd try to find a male teacher who dances both roles well.

It's funny because when I started learning to lead, many male leaders, who don't follow at all, started to offer to follow me. I think they were trying to be nice/encouraging, or maybe it was just curiosity, either way it was not working well. I will sometimes indulge men who want to learn to follow for a song or two but it is hard for me and hard for them so it gets tiring fairly quickly; so for the aspiring male followers out there, keep that in mind, try dancing with men...

May be there is a bit of fallacy here. Dancing in any role with a dancer who knows what he/she is doing makes it far easier and simpler.

If you are not a regular at a role you do not have enough experience. Experience in dancing in your irregular role. Experience dancing with those who dance a lot in their regular roles. Both those experiences add up.

From my observation there are very few role switchers that have mastered the other role. Very rare to find someone equally good in both roles.

Male leaders offering to follow you are no where close to regular female followers who have put in miles. Hence a female follower will feel a lot better when you lead. For a man switching to a follower mode, regular leader will feel fast better.

I have followed. Some long time male leaders have shortcomings in their technique and other aspects that get magnified when following them.