What comes after tango?

daisy_r said:
And maybe, if I'm being completely honest, that is the purpose that I serve right now. My community has more followers than leaders, and I suspect that some followers are just thinking about getting on the dance floor and they might say yes to a female leader mostly because it beats just sitting, and there's actually nothing wrong with that. We all want to get our dancing time in and we can't just sit and wait for the perfect partner forever, but my long term goal is to develop my leading to the point where followers who are after quality tandas are choosing me specifically.
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I see no difference to male leaders or even followers regardig this.
near topic:
Before we can think about what comes after tango, we first have to think about how we really get into tango. Being able to dance relaxed and confidently, without constant doubts and comparisons, is not a given. Especially if you are relatively seen “intermediate”, you are often just the consolation prize.

In my opinion, the following women can reach this "intermediate state" faster than men with no skills, but from then on it is the experience, the meters and miles, and also the physical constitution counts. Maybe men find overall better conditions to align their focus in a stable manner.

And my impression is that women dance with each other differently than men dance with women, circling each other at a greater distance. I'm curious to see how this affects the general dance style in the long term.

BTW: As with all generalizations, conclusions back to individual cases are of not possible.


daisy_r said:
It's funny because when I started learning to lead, many male leaders, who don't follow at all, started to offer to follow me. I think they were trying to be nice/encouraging, or maybe it was just curiosity, either way it was not working well. I will sometimes indulge men who want to learn to follow for a song or two but it is hard for me and hard for them so it gets tiring fairly quickly; so for the aspiring male followers out there, keep that in mind, try dancing with men...
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I quickly gave up on that, there is currently no “business case” for me. I've also had female dance partners who had to become good leaders themselves over years before they wanted to follow me again.
 
Brummbaer said:
Shades of Vanilla Sky and the Matrix Resurrections.
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Don't get me started. I watch far too many films, not all of them good, about things that are "10 years in the future." Weirdly, none have dancing in them.
Brummbaer said:
And I wonder who that old guy is looking at me from the mirror every morning.
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As do I. Fortunately, at "just" the better part of 60, all the dancers actually in their 60s, not to mention their 70s and 80s, still call me "young man." That helps.
 
I think you are right about this - generally speaking,
itwillhappen said:
In my opinion, the following women can reach this "intermediate state" faster than men with no skills, but from then on it is the experience, the meters and miles, and also the physical constitution counts
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but my own experience was the opposite. It took me a very very long time to get to an almost acceptable intermediate level even with substantial other dance experience, AND a substantial amount of quality instruction to give me solid foundations. But then I suddenly took off and progressed from intermediate to relatively advanced in a way that astonished both myself and others. And I can’t credit anything other than getting more experience with better partners, leading to getting more and more quantity, leading to a positive spiral of being exposed to more quality dancing, boosting my confidence and giving me reality checks on what I needed to target to improve. My early frustrations were definitely all about ‘If I can’t get to dance, how am I going to improve’.

But I also had another motivator: Age and the determination to keep at it till I physically no longer can. I can’t prevent age progressing like clockwork - literally, but I can try to be as good a dancer as possible so that age won’t matter [as much].
 
Miradamiranda said:
I It took me a very very long time to get to an almost acceptable intermediate level even with substantial other dance experience, AND a substantial amount of quality instruction to give me solid foundations.
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“It is hard to fill a cup which is already full.” [Moat in "Avatar", 2009]
Maybe that also depends on what's in it - ballet might make it easier than salsa. :)
 
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JournalInTime said:
Don't get me started. I watch far too many films, not all of them good, about things that are "10 years in the future." Weirdly, none have dancing in them.
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Let me see, You're a writer, you have lots of experience observing people (as a bar tender), you dance. Time to write the Great American* Novel that includes dancing. Then you can sell the movie rights.


*Canada is part of America.
 
Tango Distance said:
  • Here in the Tango Desert, practicas are often full of lower and mid-level followers, so it can be hard to get a follower who can help you with a challenging new step.
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Well, this was my problem, whem I was younger, impatient and eager to progress. My life and Tango partner (wife) is not "gifted", speaking of dance. She love to dance Tango, but is not comparable with ladies dancing from little girl age, retaired ballroom dance professionals, ex balerinas etc. I often had a problem to learn and practice new steps with her and I was constantly blaming her. Now I have different philosophy. If I cannot dance challenging new step with her and other mid-level followers, I have used wrong leading techniques, timing or movement and I have to try again and again..
 
Paja said:
Now I have different philosophy. If I cannot dance challenging new step with her and other mid-level followers, I have used wrong leading techniques, timing or movement and I have to try again and again..
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I think refusing to accept that others are unable to do some things (ranging from currently unable to never being able) is not a good idea.

Placing all the blame on oneself all the time when trying to improve in a partner dance just doesn't make sense.
 
pianistamediano said:
Placing all the blame on oneself all the time when trying to improve in a partner dance just doesn't make sense.
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I'll disagree, but only very slightly.
  • Sometimes the follower isn't sufficiently skilled to do that step, so it's not just the leader's failure.
  • If you're the leader, then you have to be able to lead that step.

You can find that a beginner doesn't understand the cross, or an ocho cortado, or a giro. OK, you might ask why they're there, but we all started somewhere not knowing what to do, and went to a milonga. I could expand that on to volcada, calesita, quebrada, etc. So, you try things, and adapt.

Even if the follower knows what's intended, the lead might not be there. Fine in the lesson, where that's just been the topic, but not in the wild with a random partner - and maybe not even with someone who's just done that lesson.

So it is down to practice, a follower who doesn't just recognise how you dance, and who tells you what your doing wrong, or just not doing to lead that element. And, probably, someone outside to mediate and correct.

But, I agree, you can't just blame yourself.


Paja said:
is not comparable with ladies dancing from little girl age, retaired ballroom dance professionals, ex balerinas etc
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Depends on the society around you. Yes, there are people, mainly followers, like that, but most around seem to be, or have been, in some technical profession, with another group tending to 'wellness'.
 
A movement can fail because the leader didn't lead it correctly (100% the leader's fault), because the follower didn't listen to or wait for the lead (100% the follower's fault), because the follower couldn't execute it properly (follower's fault for not having technique¹, but leader's fault for not sensing this and avoiding the movement²), or because the couple doesn't work well together (a 50/50 problem). With any two random people, all of these are about equally likely. The whole "leader should always take the blame" philosophy is rubbish. At the same time, many on both sides of the dance like to blame the other and not themselves, so it's hard to get to the truth.

—

[1] On this point, I'll share my coach's philosophy: In theory, some godlike leader can micro-lead any movement to any follower with such clarity that the follower can execute it regardless of experience. In practice, all but very simple movements come with the need for "exposure," and a follower who has never been exposed will never execute them properly unless godlike in their following skills. Lots of movements have utterly unintuitive elements that you'd think of only after someone has shown them to you.​
​
[2] Sensing lack of follower "exposure" upon initiating a movement, and aborting it or transforming it into a simpler one, is a leader skill almost as important as leading movements in the first place.​
 
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