There ARE Son performances- maybe you have not seen them--there are several of them on U Tube.
I Have been constructing one for several months .
What else can salsa borrow from the Dancesport world?
- Thread starter Pacion
- Start date
There ARE Son performances- maybe you have not seen them--there are several of them on U Tube.
I Have been constructing one for several months .
Okay, I'm not anti-ballroom! I just don't like the hypersexed Latin aesthetic with all the growling and spitting and posing, and I get turned off when the movements don't match the music (as they don't in comps with a random assignment of routines to songs).
This vid doesn't have either of those problems at all though, the musicality is actually a big plus.So top ballroom dancers can actually make a living from dancing (not coaching/teaching but strictly competing/performing)?
I think people appreciate it when it's there, but it's definitely not taught to social dancers (at least that I've seen). One would think that performers would be more aware though.
I'm pretty sure, because I was surprised myself (as you note it's rather an unnatural movement) and I made him repeat himself and go over it. Anyway, he did a bunch of other things I didn't like and I'm not going back. I miss my old teacher.
World class competitors ( top 6 ) are in constant demand all over the world-- the annual earnings of some, are more than many Drs make .-
Consider $ 200 plus for a 45 min private lesson--- performances can go as high as $ 2-3 thousand for a 5 dance show ( plus ALL expenses )which is usually a weekly event .
As much as not teaching techn. to social dancers , its been stated before -- many of the salsa teachers (?) have little or no formal dance training, and are ill equipped to define basic structure let alone advanced work .
Much of it is " monkey see-- monkey do " type teaching .
My classes ( and I,m sure there are many more ) always include basic technique and music education ( and I dont mean 123- 567 !!! )
Street dancing can still retain its " earthiness " if the application of techn. is applied to fundamentals .
Don Silver
Member
The top ballroom dancers train more like jazz and ballet dancers. Those styles emphasize very clean technique, with extreme control (a positive in my mind). But it's a different feel than street dancers and very few can cross-over between the two.
I've notice the ESPN top dancers are getting closer to a ballroom feel, and they also cross-train other dances and put in similar effort, because you can't dance like that without extensive training/practice.
Over time I see more and more salsa dancers upgrading their technical skills, and that will effect the dance over time. 10 years ago few guys could spin, now it's normal for guys to do doubles or triples, using techniques borrowed from traditional dances.
I like the clip and the attitude they have...
Pacion
New Member
...or using techniques they got second/third hand from attending specific spinning classes.
With some, I personally believe that they have miniature roller balls inserted in the bottom of their shoes! :lol:
Don Silver
Member
...or using techniques they got second/third hand from attending specific spinning classes.
<spin>
Yea, many of the street dancers take pride that they "never took lessons" when instead they use the second/third hand methods and learn more from trial and error, rather than leveraging the accumulated knowledge from the past.
The problem with that approach is the salsa dancers often lack the depth that the ballroom/jazz dancers have with spinning. I see so many guys who can "do" a triple, but their finish is inconsistent and they can only do it one way.
The other thing is the top ballroom dancers are not afraid to use coaches. They approach it more like professional athletes, where having a coach is the norm. The best athletes (and dancers) know that an outside perspective is extremely valuable at the high end, and they also make a huge positive difference as you are growing.
The coaches rarely perform at the same level as the dancer (at the high end), but they still provide perspective that is very rare for a performer evaluating their own work. Great musicians have producers, world class athletes have coaches and dancers would be well served by getting some quality coaching.
samina
Well-Known Member
i've seen some winners/placers in the mayan comp that look street to me...
Don Silver
Member
I totally agree if you are talking about things like the ESPN salsa competition or similar. And the overall level of salsa at the competitive level is going up dramatically over the last few years and the best are stealing pages from the play books of the ballroom dancers (as they should).
I guess it also depends on who you consider the Salsa elite. On the competitive circuit you are right, that level is no longer the people with their roots in street salsa.
The best competitive Salsa dancers are getting coaching, cross-training other dances and bringing a much stronger technical training to the table. That is relatively new.
We are on the same page and your clarification is valid.
Pacion
New Member
Remind me... how is *street* defined?
I think that the "Nobody placing in the salsa *competition* circuit can be called a street dancer. Not to nitpick, but the salsa elite are not street." is case dependent. The level of some competitions is very high yet, you would I would still call them *street* even when there are dips, tricks and twirl the girl like a baton type moves in it.
For instance, Johnny Vazquez when he first started out and winning competitions, I would have considered him *street*. Oliver Pineda, when he first started doing salsa competitions (and winning), I would never have considered him *street*. Both of them are "elite" today. There are some 'top' salsa teachers in the UK who I would still consider as *street* and others I would not put into that category because it is obvious to me that they are doing independent training.
biggestbox
Member
Do you guys think this is good or bad?
Pacion
New Member
Ummm. Do we think what is good or bad? :|
Don Silver
Member
"Street" is not exactly a "one-size fits all" term, and I agree on Johnny Vasquez starting in the street category. (I haven't seen him compete in a few years... I don't believe he does anymore but since he's in Europe and I'm in the States, I could simply be ignorant.)
He didn't start with ballroom or jazz training, although along the way he adopted some of their principles.
I see street dancers as decendents of the Afro-Cuban dancers, compared to those who cross-train jazz, ballroom and/or ballet dances. (I call those "traditional" dances, but that term is weak, I'm searching for something better...)
Afro-Cuban based, street salsa is a very different feel compared to someone who cross-trains in traditional dance. I don't see the street dancers working on spotting and because AC dancing wasn't born on wood floors, few of them spin like today's competitive dancers.
Most of the higher end spinning techniques come from jazz & ballet dancers, where it's taught as a science and then art is added on later. Luis Vasquez is an example of a guy who started street, but today his spins are modified piroettes (spelling?). (His ex-wife Joby has a jazz/ballet background, and I can see her influence in his spin techniques.)
Street dancers start with what works for them and the people around them, rather than finding the traditional methods that have been taught for 50 years or more for other dances. (NOTHING wrong with that approach.)
Most elite competitions these days include judges who have a traditional dance background, and they deduct points if you don't spot well, spin on your toes and/or point your toes as your feet leave the floor, since that is considered "correct" in the traditional dances.
I've seen some street dancers who do amazing spins on their heels, but that would NOT be considered valid technique at most competitions. (You can always find a few exceptional people who break any specific rule.)
Don't think I believe one is "better" than the other, I see them as different and in my mind the ultimate dancers decide which feel they want, based on the music, their partners and the situation.
The term "street" is fluid, and my definition may not fit every situation or dancer. Today there is such cross-over, with salsa being influenced by hip-hop, jazz, ballroom and other dances, that all the percise definitions/terms become interesting because the art morphs over time.