Yes, they are 'led' but I know that we are doing a drop, so is it led or set up? I think it does get into the difference of knowing what's coming and not knowing the next figure. I would think that everything is 'led' to some extent. On the side-by-sides, I am spun/led to a position next to my pro, is that a lead?
What I Learned At My Last Comp
- Thread starter latingal
- Start date
My teacher has competitive students that do lead and follow. One of her students wants a routine so she teaches it to him and then follows whatever he leads. She gets compliments because the judges see that the students are leading and not just doing a memorized routine.
Of course, the leader role is a bit different from the follower and these students are not at the upper level of silver. I also don't think the U.S. ProAm Championship was a very competitive circuit.
Of course, the leader role is a bit different from the follower and these students are not at the upper level of silver. I also don't think the U.S. ProAm Championship was a very competitive circuit.
Beg to difffer. Emphatically. Then again, I do Standard, where lead/follow is manageable. Desirable, even.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
This is a really good question. I’ve only ever competed in bronze, so “full physical and emotional expression of movement” aren’t things that have ever been expected of me. Good thing, too; because while I won’t say they’re nonexistent in my dancing, I’d say they’re concepts I barely understand at an intellectual level, and am certainly not able to execute. I mean, heck - I’m still discovering what my full physical abilities are, and trying to develop them.
The emotions I feel when dancing might or might not be visible to an audience or a judge; and if they are, it’s not entirely under my control. I’m pretty good at preventing my face from showing thoughts like “oh sh-- I just totally effed up,” but that’s different from expressing my emotions through dance movement. (Which does not surprise me, as I’ve spent the last 45 years determinedly avoiding any acknowledgment of my emotions.)
Anyway, I asked my pro about this at my lesson yesterday. His view is that at the highest levels (he specifically said Open Gold and above), yes, he/I/we/one would need a choreographed routine to compete. But until then, at any closed syllabus level, he sticks with lead/follow. I asked him whether the follower’s need to pay such close attention to the lead would prevent her from being able to dance with full artistic and emotional expression.
He said, “yes, it’s harder, but I think that’s where the benefit comes from. Because you dance, say, quick quick slow” (he demonstrated the first half of a definitely-NOT-bronze rumba box, then held his position with one hip back), “and you’re focusing so much on this moment - and then I turn you to the left - you don’t need to know what’s coming next. I mean, I know…there’s a theory…that maybe if you’re paying too much attention to the lead, then quality might be missing. But quality is getting worked in. You’re learning how to work in the expression. Your brain reacts. You’re training your mind to create action at lightning speed, not just do a series of movements without thinking, like cows walking in.”
Once I stopped laughing at that mental image, he continued. “When we dance, I’m not improvising. I’m not creating stuff. [Dude! Did you just say that with a straight face? Have you BEEN at our lessons? You make stuff up all the time!!! But yes, ok, not at a competition.] I’m just taking initiative - taking responsibility - for which elements and combinations we’re gonna dance. We’re not dancing by winging it. Look. An open routine is an order of - it’s a sequence of elements known. But in silver, you know the same elements, except they’re not always in the same order. But you still know how to dance them. If you already know how to dance them, how much time does it take you to realize what I’m leading? You already recognize the combination probably from the very first move. That’s what your brain is getting trained for - to create action during the music.”
I said that when we were at Ohio doing open bronze rhythm, I knew which pattern/figure we were going to do first, but after that, I had no idea & didn’t really care. He said, “of course - because why would you care? What difference does it make - we have time for only maybe 3 or 4 patterns, why would you need to do them always in the same order every time? Whether you’re dancing with an order of steps, or dancing lead and follow, you’re still learning every single step to your fullest ability to execute it.”
I told him that I used to think I’d prefer a memorized routine, like a little 90-second mini-showcase for each dance. But now, I think I’d be more freaked out doing it that way, because if something changed - due to the floor, or other couples, or if one of us forgot something or messed up - that would be WAY worse for me than doing lead and follow. He agreed emphatically.
But he reiterated that in higher open levels, when you’re no longer doing recognized syllabus figures, then having a choreographed routine is pretty much a requirement. “I mean, we could just say ‘here we go!’ and start dancing when the music starts, but that’s very hard, even for professionals. That would be like doing a showcase without deciding on steps. That is winging it.”
And as for emotional expression, his basic summary was that you should always try to go as far as the music allows you to, if you can. He said, “bronze - most people can’t. Silver - you could. I’d like you to. And it gets attention if you do it well. And Open - you should. Probably must.”
Later, he said, “that’s what expression is, you know? The smoothness…the transitions…the lightness…the power…all the characteristics. AND the emotions.”
He concluded by saying, “as for lead and follow - it’s a personal preference. It’s how I want to teach. But I wouldn’t defend my theory. That’s just my way of dancing. I would always ask, ‘why would you need to know?’ If you can tell me that you’re dancing worse following, that for some reason you really need to know whether you’re next stepping sideways or back or forward…” he trailed off dubiously. I assured him that I am NOT saying that, and I’m happy to continue learning the way he’s teaching.
So far, through closed bronze smooth & rhythm (& a bit of open bronze rhythm), it has worked pretty well for us. Who knows how things might change as we continue.
singndance
Forum Master
I did lead and follow for years, both in bronze and silver, whether open or closed. We never had choreographed beginnings and endings in open bronze or silver; I just had to follow his lead. When we reached open level, then I had a choreographed routine. New pro sticks to a choreographed routine but will deviate a bit for floor craft reasons. He’s great at communicating whatever changes he needs to make, and I am learning to adjust but it will take some time to feel really comfortable with that.
I think that personal expression can be done whether you have a routine or just doing lead and follow. Sometimes it’s actually better when you are doing lead and follow because it’s more natural expression rather than choreographed to match your routine. That’s just my humble opinion.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
To be honest, I find that in competition, I'm usually too busy with remembering and doing all the things I'm supposed to be doing to have emotions in the first place, let alone express them.
It's possible this has worked against me at times, though it's also possible that facilitating the lady's enjoyment of the dancing so she can express that has a bigger payoff than the man just expressing his own enjoyment, if any.
I think this is an excellent way of characterizing it. There is a difference between innovating and rearranging.
And I would say that it's true, following an innovation is probably going to seriously hinder expression. Given strong following skills, though, there should be no such hindrance for something that is merely rearranged, but familiar.
And even though I was brought up through the syllabus with a consistent strategy of always having a plan for the choreography, I can attest that pure lead-and-follow has definite learning advantages. The curve is steeper with lead-and-follow, for sure--but with choreography, you have the distinct danger that rearranging *feels like* innovation. So whatever gains in expression and learning ease you originally enjoyed, they fly out the window the moment floorcrafting comes into play.
Basically, even those of us who work from choreography also need to learn lead-and-follow eventually, just as a practical matter of survival on an unpredictable floor. And that is true at every level, even Open. The choreography is merely a crutch for a faster start.
And one can always argue both ways about the utility of crutches.
******
Oh, and all that stuff he makes up during lessons? I would bet that from his perspective, even *that* isn't innovation--he simply including things in his rearrangement that you personally don't happen to know yet. But your fluency in lead and follow makes you more comfortable stepping into the unknown than someone else might be.
It's funny how increasing knowledge and familiarity entirely changes perspective...
Last edited:
Ha ha same. I have to be careful though since I don't have a poker face. And I have trouble smiling nice in waltz, v waltz, etc. Tango is my favorite because I can just put on my annoyed thinking face, the same one I use when numbers aren't reconciling at work.
Honestly, I would be fine with either lead-follow (the non-pre-planned version) or choreo for comps, I just keep landing with pros who do the latter.
bry_dancer
Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about this a lot recently. When I compete WCS it is all lead/follow and when I compete ballroom/country it is all routines. To me my ballroom/country comps are much more stressful because I have to remember all the routines in a certain sequence -- and it's especially true of showcases that are sync'd to specific music.
Also, when I'm watching online or in person I much prefer lead/follow than routines. It just looks more "real" and less staged. It also gives more flexibility to adapt or change to the specific song being played. I'm not sure if that is just personal preference or if something actually looks more "real" about lead/follow. Maybe it's because you have to have a solid connection to dance lead/follow whereas you can do memorized routines side-by-side with no connection at all.
Also, my old pro said she won USDC A Gold 9-dance doing only lead/follow so it can be done.
Last edited:
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I agree lead and follow is needed in terms of the execution of figures. I'm not so sure lead and follow is needed to the point of choreographic substitution.
As I mentioned, I used routines when I was just starting to compete. With an extremely good pro-am instructor, following the rule of "never overturn, only underturn" was sufficient for floorcraft; I didn't have to vary from the routine. With an experienced syllabus amateur partner, there were a few times when I had to add in extra movement or less movement as ways of avoiding collisions advantageously, but again did not have to vary from the set routine.
Years later, the first time I danced at Nationals with my open Smooth partner was a floorcraft disaster for us. We went back to our coach and he gave us a bunch of escape groups to use in difficult floorcraft situations.
However, we never actually used those escape groups. The other thing we changed was that I started wearing my glasses for competitions, rather than my incorrectly believing that even with my nearsightedness, I could see well enough without glasses to see where the other couples were going. With glasses, and I maybe contacts toward the end, handling floorcraft by bending our routines was sufficient to win most of the 30 or so competitions we did in the 2-3 years we were together. In some ways, this was easier with open American choreography; for example, some figures, like free spins, are okay to overturn as well as underturn.
Arguably, perhaps, my treatment of competition routines was different from yours, in the sense that you work "from" routines and build from there, while I worked "with" routines, within the framework they provided.
joy
Forum Master
I put a lot of conditions in my prior statement: In this day and age, Smooth, for Silver and higher in a big and competitive comp (like OSB): it's unlikely to make top 3 with lead/follow.
Smooth competition nowadays is brutal. Especially in PnP's age group, the most popular one.
Smooth competition nowadays is brutal. Especially in PnP's age group, the most popular one.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Gosh, I hope my "annoyed thinking face" doesn't show up in competition. It's bad enough that when I'm paying attention and thinking hard during a conversation, my frown is apparently scary enough to make the other person think I have a death wish for them, when in fact the conversation is often just interesting enough to make me think hard.
Sounds about right.
Our current choreo for Quickstep, for example, consists of 3 transitional amalgamations and 3 "hauling-a**" patterns (Scatter chasse, Open Natural, Promenade Run). My main empty-floor goal is merely to put the transitions into the proper spot on the floor (i.e, end corner, mid-long side, start corner). The preponderance of our lead-follow need is communicating the difference between vamping the "haul-a**" move and exiting into a transition. My partner does not (and cannot) know in advance how many reps we will do.
This is the most extreme example of how we build from a base choreo, but all of our dances are like that to some extent. We have things that we want to happen in an explicit location, which do not vary, and methods of getting from place to place stylishly, which vary all the time.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Do you really have a routine, though, which would at least imply a default sequence of use of the floor coverage groups? If not, this seems to me a lot more like pure lead and follow, which almost always includes the use of some figure groupings that are known to both partners, such as you describe.
Are you competing in open Smooth and do you follow the same approach there?
In most dances, yes. Quickstep is our most extreme by far. In most cases, the only "variable" element is extending a fully-planned long side, or truncating a fully-planned short side. It amounts to a tiny handful of "unplanned" movements, unless floor conditions force things. There have even been some lovely cases where we needed zero deviation from the plan.
Yes and yes.
Fortunately, my wife is confident about and talented with improvising! And I make every effort to only improvise in figures where we are well-connected.
It also helps that Open dancers all floorcraft quite well, and the Northeast Open Smooth crowd are very friendly and collegial. There is a great deal of mutual respect on the floor, and that makes things easier.
Last edited: