What is important for ladies in a dance?
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FancyFeet
Forum Master
@atk sure it does... but just like informing a position on anything, I'd a) not include raw beginners in my sample of what is 'normal' behaviour, because they haven't learned it yet; and b) use a few random outliers as examples.
I don't know you, and this is absolutely not personal... but if the latter group in your example were more than a few random people over time (or possibly, a larger group that all came from the same studio/school/instructor), I'd be asking questions about my lead. And yes, I lead
I don't know you, and this is absolutely not personal... but if the latter group in your example were more than a few random people over time (or possibly, a larger group that all came from the same studio/school/instructor), I'd be asking questions about my lead. And yes, I lead
We have to, since there are no default patterns (or even footwork) to fall back on when not actively leading. OTOH, lack of a "basic" means you can blues to 3/4 time just as readily as 4/4 time.
The original statement to which i responded was one asking why leaders believe that followers want more patterns. The observations I've shared help to explain how this impression is created.
It doesn't much impact the impression of leaders if behavior is normal outside of beginners, when most dancers are beginners and most beginning leaders (who seem more likely to have the impression that patterns are the important thing) seem more likely to dance with dance with beginner followers.
snapdancer
Forum Master
Nice poll, and some good comments here.
I've added up the points mentioned so far in this thread, and the results are:
Clearly leading skills followed by musicality are the most valued attributes by the followers who have responded. Variety barely registers.
In my social dancing "career" I have encountered a few follows who value variety. Most of them were poor followers or even tried to take over the dance.
There have been a few cases where a follower has mentioned (in a positive manner) "New move" or something on that order. Usually it's just one of the same boring patterns I normally do.
I also agree with the point of view that the leader is the one who values variety. A follow who dances with a number of different leaders will experience a wide range of patterns because different leaders tend to acquire different sets of patterns. But a leader is stuck with the patterns he knows. I compensate for this by:
(1) dancing with different followers, because they all follow a bit differently
(2) trying to expand my repertoire gradually. If I have a follow with decent skills, I may try one new pattern during a dance but spend the rest of that dance dancing the boring (to me) stuff that I can lead reasonably well. Take the feedback from trying the new pattern on a number of different followers and try to analyze my failures to make improvements.
I've added up the points mentioned so far in this thread, and the results are:
Attribute→ | Musicality | Variety | Skills | Fun |
Total Points → | 18 | 0.5 | 30 | 5.5 |
Weight → | 33.3% | 0.9% | 55.6% | 10.2% |
Clearly leading skills followed by musicality are the most valued attributes by the followers who have responded. Variety barely registers.
In my social dancing "career" I have encountered a few follows who value variety. Most of them were poor followers or even tried to take over the dance.
There have been a few cases where a follower has mentioned (in a positive manner) "New move" or something on that order. Usually it's just one of the same boring patterns I normally do.
I also agree with the point of view that the leader is the one who values variety. A follow who dances with a number of different leaders will experience a wide range of patterns because different leaders tend to acquire different sets of patterns. But a leader is stuck with the patterns he knows. I compensate for this by:
(1) dancing with different followers, because they all follow a bit differently
(2) trying to expand my repertoire gradually. If I have a follow with decent skills, I may try one new pattern during a dance but spend the rest of that dance dancing the boring (to me) stuff that I can lead reasonably well. Take the feedback from trying the new pattern on a number of different followers and try to analyze my failures to make improvements.
Multidancer
Guest
It is my time to be surprised. I danced fair amount of blues before it morphed into fusion dancing. I already was experienced in salsa and other dances when I first danced it ten years back.
Blues dancers had worst technique or no technique. It appeared more like a free form partner dance to slow blues music. Anyone with a good ballroom or other partner dance back ground could easily take to it.
I was told that blues evolved into fusion due to frequent criticism of lack of dance technique amongst those who danced it.
Of all social dances, salsa is the largest community worldwide. You will practically find more salsa dancing in all corners of the world than swing, tango, blues, kizomba, zouk, etc. Bachata will probably eclipse salsa soon in that regard. Salsa is danced in mixed music latin clubs and in exclusive salsa only clubs/events. If you dance in a mixed music latin clubs, you will find people who have no technique. They are not trained or have taken any classes in salsa dancing. They are not considered salsa dancers anymore than a couple taking waltz or foxtrot lessons for a wedding dance would be considered ballroom dancers. The trained dancers or those who have taken classes in most cases avoid mixed music latin club. You find a regular club goers there.
Flexibiilty? I'm writing more about mental flexibility and ability to go with the flow. Her pysical flexibiltity might mean I can lead some faster, snapper, more complex moves. But if she's too tightly tied to routines taught in class we'll have problems if I just use part of the variation or continue into another move without throwing in a basic.
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snapdancer
Forum Master
I'm not so sure that musicality is necessarily a desirable attribute in a follower. What if she has a strong sense of musicality that's different from the leader? That can cause problems.
On adaptability: I've found it necessary as a leader to adapt to various partners of different skill levels. Perhaps I do it too much, to the detriment of my own dancing.
Would have to think on this more, what might be a set of attributes.
On adaptability: I've found it necessary as a leader to adapt to various partners of different skill levels. Perhaps I do it too much, to the detriment of my own dancing.
Would have to think on this more, what might be a set of attributes.
opendoor
Forum Master
It is, snapdancer, but I got what you meant. I find that the leader is the solo musician in a dancing couple. The leader substitutes a big part of the music playing in the background. And of course it does not work when the follower´s attention sticks to the background in the first place. I often experienced this challence in my own body when switching to the following role. It is hard to suppress one´s own interpretation of the music in favor of the interpretation the leader is offering at that moment. But to return to the starting point, to find one´s way into the leader´s interpretation of music does require musicality as well, not to mention the solo parts the leader leaves to the follower to fill.
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snapdancer
Forum Master
+1 on that. Unfortunately there are some women, but fortunately very few women, who regard my frame as an anchor to leverage against as they wrestle themselves through a turn because they ignored the lead I gave them on the prior step to prep themselves for the turn.
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snapdancer
Forum Master
I had thought of that, but then I consider the "self-mobilizing" to be an essential element of following skills.
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There has been a long discussion on SF about prepping turns.. It appears that ( for EG ) in NYC there are many differing opinions .
This arises due to the fact that the majority of "teachers ?" do not know the difference between Footwork and Foot position .EVERY thing is described as Footwork . IF one is not advised specifically to give directional body and foot positions , then the results without will create conflict. But, as they say "Ya cant teach what ya don't know " .
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snapdancer
Forum Master
Not sure whether you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.
If you're disagreeing, could you expand on your thinking?