What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[TTanguero]

Looking jerky, wobbly, ready to fall etc are bad outwardly and due to bad technique.

They are, but you can fail to really push into the ground without exhibiting any of these failings. Being really grounded in your dance is something you feel rather than see.

 

[TTanguero]

I lose interest when it strays too far from what I (for me personally) consider the essence.

This is for me the key. What we each personally consider the essence may vary, but I think each of us would wish to retain that, whatever 'that' may be for us.

 

[Brummbaer]

What we each personally consider the essence may vary, but I think each of us would wish to retain that, whatever 'that' may be for us.

Whilst that's true, whatever 'that essence' is needs to be identified and marketed.

Without intending to insult ballroom dancers, for many of them that 'essence' has been identified as 'competition'. That's ok, but for me I loathe competition and its introduction in other areas has killed the recreational aspects.

Some seem to find their 'nicer' world in AT by going back to, and insisting on, their perspective of another culture and time. Some want fusion dances as something new. Some do wish to compete; others want a pleasant social circle. Others find their place in music tech, or that vinyl collection, or AT musicology.

However it does seem apparent that AT 'performance' - whether a stage performance, a choreographed 'competitive' routine, or even al fresco (i.e. others can see, and even participate) social AT (preferably with any live music) is an attraction. And we don't appear to be able to use that marketing. Instead we seem to wish to market some deeper [social, platonic] attraction, being 'one'...

Perhaps we also need to consider why we, and birds, dance.

 

[JournalInTime]

They are, but you can fail to really push into the ground without exhibiting any of these failings. Being really grounded in your dance is something you feel rather than see.

Yes – and back engagement is in the same department. Every one of my most influential teachers has said words to the general effect of, "You don't seek to make torso-to-torso contact. You seek to make back-to-arm contact, and because arms aren't infinitely long, this necessarily brings the torsos into contact." Or more concisely, "You seek to hug. Hugging is about encircling one another with arms. A hug is a big circle." The latter is a tricky way to say it, though, because these days people seem to be into "A-frame hugs" (the too-distant ones with little back pats) rather than proper, enveloping hugs.

Anyway, I can dance well with somebody who rounds out their back into my right arm but doesn't like to be glued to my torso, but not with somebody who melts onto my torso and in doing so implodes their back. Rounding the back to create contact with the arm doesn't mean leaning back – and although I like to share weight, that also doesn't mean the horrid "absolutely upright legs, outthrust rear end, canted-forward torso" posture that practically ensures lower-back damage for them and no freedom of movement for me. What I mean is upright torsos leaning neither forward nor back, rounded into arms in back and lifted into chest contact in front, with the legs projected slightly back to create space below as needed.

This ties into grounding because, with back lean or with front lean without back engagement, you can be as grounded as you like and not tell your partner where your legs are . . . the cross-body muscular engagement from supporting leg to opposite side is hidden behind the tension of back-lean or slackness of front-lean. I was dancing last night with a friend who needs to work on this. She was decorating her steps but not giving me information about where her legs were due to leaning back. As a result, I was unable to read the muscles that would've told me where her supporting leg was, and more than once I had to save her from a misstep.

 

[Paja]

I am one who combine Salsa&Bachata with TA, due to some specifics of place I have been living. In close distance from my house (up to 50km) is min one Latino party every week, but to join Milonga is 1hour driving min. time. YES, I am not perfect in both these ecosystems and can improve in one, if I give up second but perfection is not my target. On other hand, there are some advantages to dane both styles. For almost every Salsa&Bachata follower I am extraordinary leader. They like my firm, predictable and precise lead, enjoy basic step in close embrace etc. For my Tango it is good flexibility improvement from Bachata Sensual lessons. But what is important for me, I am not endangered by burn-out syndrome. Sometime there is too much Tango, so I quit for a while and enjoy Latino party. Or oposite.
What I really like on Tango songs is structure and length 3min. Lot of popular Salsa songs last for more then 5 min and it is quite exhausting to dance for 6 min without pause.
Lucia started to compare AT with other social dances. For me there is difference, say it simple by one word, Salsa & Bachata are FUN, Tango is PLEASURE and I mean giving, or in best case sharing, not having.
One notice to Youtube videos - I hate copying figures from show to social. I believe worst it is here in Bachata Sensual groups. This dance is new and I know some of you even do not agree it as dance. Doesn't matter, lot of new dancers, without previous dancing experiencies are attracted and start. But YT is full of videos of overmotivated, sky rocket EGO guys, who combine waves, body movements with acrobatic figures from rock-n-roll. And they need to increase level every next show to beat every other guy. Crazy.
YT tango shows are not as terrible, extraordinary figures were invented during Tango Nuevo times and for me show is just repeating of things I seen. Videos from Milonga may seem ordinary or amateurish. But this is OK, most of dancers there are amateurs with limited skills. To undestand this extraordinary feeling of good ronda, you need to be there personally, video cannot do this job.

 

[lucia_l]

Without intending to insult ballroom dancers, for many of them that 'essence' has been identified as 'competition'.

It's not an issue of insulting ballroom dancers. It's an issue of "accuracy". What you are saying is simply incorrect -- at least in the US. There are many, many more social ballroom dancers than competition dancers. This majority of US dancers do not consider competition "the essence". Many are even entirely unaware of competition.

I'm not insulted that you think what you think or make false claims. I just know they are incorrect.

In the US, ballroom teachers compete themselves or offer pro-am competition. But that doesn't mean people think competition is the "soul" of ballroom. It only means that pro-am is a source of revenue, it's offerred and when students compete it does make money for the pro. And competition is very visible here at DF and on the web. Videos of socials... they don't attract that many eyeballs.

That's ok, but for me I loathe competition and its introduction in other areas has killed the recreational aspects.

That's fine. Lots of ballroom dancers also loathe competition; most don't do compete. They don't think they are missing out on "the soul."

AT tango competitions exist btw. I know three or four local people who love them and dislike the social scene. You won't meet them at the social scene, so you are likely to be unaware of their feelings.

Why AT dancers keep insisting things like the soul of ballroom is competition. Maybe it is in other parts of the world? Not here in the US.

 

[JournalInTime]

I loathe competition and its introduction in other areas has killed the recreational aspects.

I feel the same way.

However it does seem apparent that AT 'performance' [...] is an attraction. And we don't appear to be able to use that marketing. Instead we seem to wish to market some deeper [social, platonic] attraction, being 'one'...

I really do think it comes back to purism!

The biggest show steps, definitive of the "performance" of which you write, are unsuitable "as is" for close quarters. However, when beginners hire teachers after having seen competitive TV shows, YouTube videos, demos by pros who have the entire room to dance in, and so forth, it's always show steps that they want to learn. Right now, I'm assisting my coach with teaching, and everybody who walks in that door wants the deep volcadas, the colgadas, the enchained ganchos, the leader spiraling in place throwing patadas and exiting with swift enrosques to back sacadas, etc. Rather than rap them on the knuckles as if to say, "No! Bad dog! We don't do that!", perhaps we should show how those things can be shrunk and tucked inside the abrazo for use at the milonga.

Purists really hate that thought. They see "tango escenario" and "tango fantasia" as something "impure" and totally different from "tango salón" and "tango milonguero," to be discouraged actively not only by teachers refusing to teach it but also by social pressure – i.e., snobbery – on the part of ordinary dancers at the milonga. As a result, they're cutting off tango's nose despite its face . . . because the face of tango is what people see on those TV shows, YouTube videos, and demos, not what they mostly can't see if they attend a milonga, which intimate conversations hidden between partners.

Anyway, I enjoy my coach's approach. Her students ask her to teach them the flashy thing. She's happy to do so, but shows them the "social" version. My partner and I act as a live demo. We show it both ways . . . and when the students try it the small, social way, they inevitably find it much easier because they aren't professional dance athletes, and then go on their happy way, dancing it politely.

The "No! Bad dog!" approach to teaching is the worst. When teaching, it's just about always best to avoid "no" and "don't" and take the "you could, but a better/safer/easier way is . . ." approach. But purists who teach just love to yap "no" and "don't," which isn't exactly the path to retaining people for the years it takes to feel comfortable in one's body at a crowded milonga.

 

[JournalInTime]

AT tango competitions exist btw.

Yep. We had the national qualifier for the TangoBA "world cup of tango" right here, not 10 minutes from where I live, a couple of weeks ago. I didn't enter the formal competition because I dislike such things. My partner and I did enter an informal, all-comers "competition" just for laughs.

I know three or four local people who love them and dislike the social scene. You won't meet them at the social scene, so you are likely to be unaware of their feelings.

Yes again! At that event, there were people I have never seen at the milonga dancing better than a lot of the people I have seen at the milonga. I was curious and found out that there's an entire, quite large community of AT dancers here who work in studios with coaches but who can't stand the social scene. They practice to compete in AT and don't dance it socially. And to be clear: It's social AT, not show tango, that they dance . . . they just prefer dancing three intense, flawless pieces on an uncrowded floor and then getting a numerical score to dancing large numbers of so-so tandas on a busy floor and not knowing how their partner felt.

Why AT dancers keep insisting things like the soul of ballroom is competition. Maybe it is in other parts of the world? Not here in the US.

I think it's precisely because there are places where that's all it is. I happen to know some couples who dance both. They came to AT because it has a social scene that ballroom lacks here. You can easily find "socials" for just about all styles here, but ballroom is conspicuously absent. That might have something to do with local culture . . . I have no clue.

 

[Miradamiranda]

whatever 'that essence' is needs to be identified and marketed.

Time for a new thread?

 

[opendoor]

Why AT dancers keep insisting things like the soul of ballroom is competition. Maybe it is in other parts of the world? Not here in the US.

In Europe, it's just like that, and it's been that way since the beginning. And I think it's the same for the rest of the world, too. From my perspective, ballroom in the US is more of a fringe phenomenon (but as I've learned from you and Fiesta, a very commendable one). For us, it's all about Am-Am and Pro-Pro.

 

[opendoor]

Time for a new thread?

Go !

 

[opendoor]

"Dance is dance. Once you learn good dance technique, styles are just different applications." Tango people often like to imagine that AT is as different from, say, salsa as biology is from physics, but that's ego.

Not me!

..I didn't choose examples at random . . . back at the university, scientists in some fields liked to imagine that they were special, and they didn't like cross-pollination either.

I know, and the closer you are, the stronger the urge for contrast!

 

[tangoing]

Yeah, but anyone can spot the appearance of a woman who is leaning overly heavily and being dragged. Or jerky motion (as opposed to sharp.) These things spring from bad technique.

Looking jerky, wobbly, ready to fall etc are bad outwardly and due to bad technique.

Which videos of pro AT dancers do you see this in?

 

[Bailango]

You've danced salsa, so I cannot understand your statement. The musical depth of Cuban music is at least as great as in tango. There are so many rhythms. Each of these rhythms, in turn, corresponds to a wide range of dance interpretations. Only a small fraction is what we call salsa dura or casino.

I fully agree with @Miradamiranda response.

In both salsa and tango, the music and dance are interlinked. But we also have to know how to see them as separate entity. Yes the musical rhythms under the salsa umbrella and the music itself are more complex and richer than the Tango music. That’s my personal opinion. Those that understand both music, tend to agree.

When it comes to social dancing it is the opposite. Tango has depth and richness that salsa can’t match. Salsa dancers find it hard to improvise and be musical. They dance far more mechanically than any other social dancers. E.g. hardly anyone will change their dancing if son music is playing.

We can’t conflate richness of music with richness of dance and vice versa.

Perhaps these guys weren't deep enough into cuban music. It takes two years to get into tango, but it takes a whole life to get into cuban music.

There are lot of people deep into the music and have been for lifelong. And by their own admission are average or below average dancers. Tango dancers are far more into music than salsa dancers are.

 

[Bailango]

This is for me the key. What we each personally consider the essence may vary, but I think each of us would wish to retain that, whatever 'that' may be for us.

I still think that so far collectively there is a consensus among the tango dancers what the essence is. The problem for the dance occurs when that essence varys too much. Most of the social dances have retained their essence and not strayed too far.