well, that's the difference between performance (narrative) and social dance (conversation)
What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining
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well, that's the difference between performance (narrative) and social dance (conversation)
TTanguero
Forum Master
Yes – I'm referring to social dance.
I do agree with you about most tango performances. It's perhaps one of the reasons I don't normally enjoy watching them. I wrote about Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh & Maria Filali being a rare exception at last year's Sheffield Tango Festival. I'd be interested to see whether you have the same view – that the dance very much had things to say.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Well, a ‘story’ can unfold during that tanda even if not planned. I have after the fact or as an almost out of body observer to my own dancing had the thought that wow, that was a ‘story’ of epic proportions worthy of big money Hollywoodesque production.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
I liked this post and after reading it, moving on to the following posts, I thought it was being unnecessarily torn apart and dismissed because others had a different usage of the imagery. Then I reread the responses and see you all have valid points but I’m not sure you are really in contradiction.
Yet another approach: technique, or rather bad technique should not get in the way. Compare to technically flawless performances of, say, a young classical piano player at a competition. Very often the soul and expression has taken a minor role over the fireworks. On the other hand, if bad technique is getting in the way, the expression could only clumsily take place.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Therefor, the technique should be invisible at the service of expression. The fireworks in the performance would be the stained window.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I think we're not in contradiction at all about technique. I think Fiesta and I would both agree that (a) technique is crucial and (b) that good technique is invisible.
Whether we agree about the relative appeal of milonguero-style dancing with open-embrace showy dancing is, in my view, something we can't actually know until they have experienced the feeling of each – rather than just reaching a conclusion visually. But that, of course, brings us right back to the challenge of the thread topic!
TTanguero
Forum Master
Yes, I'd liken that a narrative about our own lives. Most of us don't set out to live out a particular story, but looking back on our life to date we may see stories and themes emerging.
Maybe this is hubris, but I venture to claim I already know the answer to this, because the Ballroom Smooth/Standard connection works the same way as AT. The only notable difference is that the primary connection point in AT is higher up on the torso, which opens up space in the feet for more varied on-the-spot movement. For example, you cannot dance Cross system in Ballroom, only Parallel, because of the tight space in the legs, and moves like Molinete are only done by high-level showdancers who break the rules a little to allow it.
Moreover, Ballroom social dance is often small and contained, like milonguero style, and for the same reason: dancers are choosing a style that fits better on a packed floor. Some folks refer to this sort of experience as "shuffle-dancing," because you never get the space or opportunity to bite off a full-sized stride. In the Ballroom heydey of our parents and grandparents, this sort of densely-packed crowd was the rule. Less so now, since the younger generations are heading off to do Club Latin and West Coast Swing and the floors are generally emptier, but it still happens here and there.
Shuffle-dancing is fun, in its own way. It is entertaining to try and craft movement that fits in a telephone booth, there is an intensely social feeling to having couples crowded around you even if you do not interact with them, and it *does* require superior technique & connection to communicate such tiny movements well, which is satisfying in its own way.
But I would never elect to shuffle-dance on an open floor. And understanding in advance that an event is expected or designed to be a shuffle-dance from beginning to end is a turn-off for me. It gives me such a limited palette of colors to paint with. And if it weren't clear by now, my favorite kinds of art are based heavily on contrast.
It really is preference and not ignorance, I think.
ETA: The way I can see myself being wrong is if AT is so vastly more permissive of on-the-spot movement that it would allow me to satisfy my eternal desire for contrast without traveling at all. When I watch Y&B, who do many extremely-interesting things on the spot, I suspect that it is, which is why I characterized their interpretation of AT as the only dance form I would ever need. But what they are doing is emphatically NOT milonguero style, in any sense! And so I return to my comparison of "milonguero AT" to "shuffle Ballroom."
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Aha! It's hard to find videos of social Ballroom, because the video platforms are dominated by lessons, competitions, and shows. But I finally found a good example of Shuffle-Dance!
Hopefully, those who are not so familiar with this style or substyle can see why I compare it to milonguero.
(Unusually weak technique notwithstanding, as few of these couples are skilled enough to dance in body contact)
Hopefully, those who are not so familiar with this style or substyle can see why I compare it to milonguero.
(Unusually weak technique notwithstanding, as few of these couples are skilled enough to dance in body contact)
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Yeah the boundaries can blur a little, I have some partners that like dramatic interpretations (at least with me), in this case some performance elements in the sense of deliberately portraying an emotion, situation or character can enter the social sphere by mutual consent.
TTanguero
Forum Master
No, there are cuddle-shufflers in tango too, and that's absolutely not the same thing as milonguero-style tango (though it might look similar from the outside).
And milonguero doesn't mean not moving - if there is space, it can most assuredly include a big walk.
In my ranking it would be 2,3,1,4. Last one I didn’t bother to watch beyond first few seconds.
I think we all agree on a “medium” refers to. I think the confusion is about the meaning of “content”.
I think in context of dance when @TTanguero refers to “content” he is weighing it heavily in “experience” or “how it feels of is experienced internally”. When you refer to “content” in the context of the dance it comes across to me as “expression”, that is what the dancers are expressing which can be viewed externally. Now I may be wrong because you both might have different meaning to “content” when you use it.
Whereas in the case of fiction reading and writing, it came across to me that “content” was what you felt or internalized based on what was “expressed” through the “medium” (wordsmith, craft of writing). Hence my immediate reaction that it appeared to be a contradiction.
So may be there are three different things that need to be talked about - technique, expression, and experience. Expression is story telling. Experience is not story telling. Experience is how the story makes you feel while you are telling it. But story would also make observer who is watching feel something.
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Continued….
[the last post got accidentally posted and by time I edited it, timed out]
Which brings us to connection. Though in a dance we connect in different dimensions (music, others dancing around, partner, audience sometimes, etc). I think @TTanguero is talking about primary connection experienced with the partner one is dancing with and weighs it far more. Which is not uncommon with most AT dancers including me. For example in salsa too I can have more connection with one partner compared to other, but how much I weigh it as a salsa dancer is perhaps less than how much I weigh it as a AT dancers.
When you refer to connection, may be you are weighing more what can be observed. Perhaps a lot of social AT dancers weigh that part less.
If we take 1 and 2 above. Your preference is 1 - you like the expression and it resonates with you more as an observer. I will also assume it is the type of expression you will desire to project if you were dancing. My preference for exact same reason is 2. If I were to dance, I would prefer the 2 not because of its type of expression, but because of the experience I “think” (or I “know”) that will result from dancing that way (so it’s a “content”?). Dancing AT, I think a lot of partners will value me leading like 2 than like 1. There really isn’t any right or wrong here. As I said the outset it is matter of preference when social dancing.
Now if I were to be performing, connecting with audience becomes important. Therefore what I prioritize as experience and expression changes.
Experiencing a connection with partner, while all other things being equal, I think is where @TTanguero and I prize the most in social dancing. Expressing the music through dance is about the musicality and I consider that distinct from connection itself. Some partners can hamper your ability to express. But they make you feel good about the dance. Others can enhance your ability to express but you don’t feel high degree of connection with them. Some do both and they are the ones we are constantly striving to discover, find, keep dancing with.
When it comes to technique we all agree that it is very important and forms the foundation. Dancing with a weak technique is like a house built on a weak foundation. Good technique recedes in the background (or invisible). Conversely, bad technique sticks like an eyesore, highlighting itself even when we don’t want to notice.
[the last post got accidentally posted and by time I edited it, timed out]
Which brings us to connection. Though in a dance we connect in different dimensions (music, others dancing around, partner, audience sometimes, etc). I think @TTanguero is talking about primary connection experienced with the partner one is dancing with and weighs it far more. Which is not uncommon with most AT dancers including me. For example in salsa too I can have more connection with one partner compared to other, but how much I weigh it as a salsa dancer is perhaps less than how much I weigh it as a AT dancers.
When you refer to connection, may be you are weighing more what can be observed. Perhaps a lot of social AT dancers weigh that part less.
If we take 1 and 2 above. Your preference is 1 - you like the expression and it resonates with you more as an observer. I will also assume it is the type of expression you will desire to project if you were dancing. My preference for exact same reason is 2. If I were to dance, I would prefer the 2 not because of its type of expression, but because of the experience I “think” (or I “know”) that will result from dancing that way (so it’s a “content”?). Dancing AT, I think a lot of partners will value me leading like 2 than like 1. There really isn’t any right or wrong here. As I said the outset it is matter of preference when social dancing.
Now if I were to be performing, connecting with audience becomes important. Therefore what I prioritize as experience and expression changes.
Experiencing a connection with partner, while all other things being equal, I think is where @TTanguero and I prize the most in social dancing. Expressing the music through dance is about the musicality and I consider that distinct from connection itself. Some partners can hamper your ability to express. But they make you feel good about the dance. Others can enhance your ability to express but you don’t feel high degree of connection with them. Some do both and they are the ones we are constantly striving to discover, find, keep dancing with.
When it comes to technique we all agree that it is very important and forms the foundation. Dancing with a weak technique is like a house built on a weak foundation. Good technique recedes in the background (or invisible). Conversely, bad technique sticks like an eyesore, highlighting itself even when we don’t want to notice.
Yes. Though in my eyes A&C demonstrate more mastery of the medium. Off the four, I didn’t analyze who is the weakest link.
If I had as good technique as those four, when I social dance, I will limit my Y&B type movement and expression to only certain dramatic phrases during the music.
I can create heightened contrast while dancing like A&C, which can be felt by my partner but might easily escape outside observed. If we talk about frequency, amplitude and wavelength - I want me and my partner to be on the same wavelength. I prefer the amplitude to match the music. I dislike loud amplitude and that’s a personal presence. Frequency would be the how fast or slow I move. Or the frequency is expressed through my movement. So when it comes to heightened contrast, I prefer to use frequency rather than the amplitude. Only during certain passages I will want to use the amplitude. So amplitude is how big or small I dance. Frequency is how I pace my dance. Wavelength is adjusting both to my partner.
I used a different analogy above on how I find them different.
No.
Windowpane-lover complicated the discussion
but again that is the expression?I think where the writing analogy fails is that you can have different techniques as a wordsmith. But as a dancer there is not that much variance in techniques. In other words we in dancing the technique converges. We can mostly agree on what is a good technique. We can sometimes choose to ignore weaker technique in service of the collective good of social dancing.
Indeed. I said something similar.
Agree
So you are focusing on what their moment is expressing?
I am focusing on how that type of movement will make me feel if I was in Y’s or A’s shoes. If I were to chart range of movements as a bell curve, for my personal dancing preference A’s movement would be on the top of the bell curve and Y’s would be between half to full standard deviation. I think each of us have our personal bell curve of movements we prefer to deploys in our dancing.
opendoor
Forum Master
That's correct.
Actually, there's a term for this, "Estilo del Club," which has almost disappeared. The term was coined at a time when the tango scene of BsAs moved from the center to the gyms and sports halls. Suddenly, the dance couples had plenty of space: Club = Milonguero + figures.