What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[opendoor]

Movement is content, not medium. Connection is the medium...

Finally, we don't have to contradict each other anymore.

Actually, I can't dance without retelling a story. Even trapped in a ronda on a packed dance floor, I have to tell my version of the story, which often differs from the majority. This is also the cause of the disagreement with Miradamiranda. I primarily listen to the music playing and respond to what's offered with my vocabulary and my means of expression. I then tell the story in different words, I also add what the music leaves out, or even contradict it. It's clear that this doesn't really work in a ronda, where most participants can only respond to the speech with nods and affirmations on the beat.

 

[TTanguero]

Continued….
[the last post got accidentally posted and by time I edited it, timed out]

Yes, I think this captures it perfectly.

"I think in context of dance when @TTanguero refers to “content” he is weighing it heavily in “experience” or “how it feels of is experienced internally”
Another way of thinking about this is: why do we dance? Clearly it's not in order to move. We could do that on our own, at home or in the street. That's why I think of movement as merely a medium and not the content.

 

[opendoor]

Human feelings and human behavior, like other biochemical values or morphological traits, are more or less subject to a Gaussian normal distribution. In this respect, I have to acknowledge that music must not equally represent such an authoritarian force for everyone as it does for me. Perhaps you're also more self-controlled, are you? For me, music simply compels and forces me onto the dance floor, whether it's Biagi, Bach, or Beethoven. So much for your point of...

"... why do we dance?"

Completely unrelated to this is why we dance socially and attend classes. After hard years of separation and divorce, I wanted to reconnect with the opposite sex. Ballroom still disgusted me, hustle bored me, salsa frustrated me, folk annoyed me because of the routines I had to memorize, and I hadn't seen lindy hop yet. By chance, I accidentally found myself in a milonga. That's where I settled and found everything I was looking for.

 

[fiesta0618]

Another way of thinking about this is: why do we dance? Clearly it's not in order to move. We could do that on our own, at home or in the street.

I don't agree with this reasoning. Every isolated part of what we do in dance is something that we could do without dance--including connection--and so, by following this logic to the end, we could disqualify every aspect and have nothing left.

I would say we dance not for any one element of what it is, but because the sum of its parts is unique among all activities we might choose to engage in.

For example: I socially partner dance because I want to...

1. Move...
2. ...expressively...
3. ...to music...
4. ...with another person...
5. ...in a like-minded crowd.

If I take any of those elements away, I am describing some other activity besides social partner dance.

For example, take away #1, as that is the aspect currently in question. I am then left with be expressive to music with another person in a like-minded crowd. The best way to do that, for me, is to get a band together and start playing. Worst-case scenario, if nobody else can play, we can go do karaoke.

Ultimately, I think the only place we are differing is what it means to express, what we choose to express, and how we prefer to go about expressing. Which makes sense, as everyone is different. It would be uncanny if our notions of expression were identical!

ETA: We also might assign these elements differing weight?

Like, for me, the "crowd" part is least important by far, which is one reason why I find competition equally satisfying as social. When (if) I get to the final, I have an enormous floor, only have to share it with 5 other couples, and get a song playing solely for the pleasure of me and that little group. Freedom!!!

I also think, if I were forced to choose or die, I would place the "with a partner" aspect higher than "music." Music is nice because it suggests an emotion for us, but I feel plenty on my own without it, and could work with just that. Regardless, solo dance does not tempt me at all.

Etc, etc.

In final analysis, I guess I'd rank it thus:

1. Move...
2. ...with another person...
3. ...expressively...
4. ...to music...
5. ...in a like-minded crowd.

My lifelong identity as an athlete who particularly enjoys team sports makes this breakdown pretty easy to understand, I would surmise. I am first and foremost motivated by doing & moving in an active way, more so than any activity that is principally sensory or passive. And with music so far down my list, it stands to reason that I would enjoy Y&B so much even if they are "over the music" by most sensibilities.

 

[Bailango]

Actually, I can't dance without retelling a story. Even trapped in a ronda on a packed dance floor, I have to tell my version of the story, which often differs from the majority. This is also the cause of the disagreement with Miradamiranda. I primarily listen to the music playing and respond to what's offered with my vocabulary and my means of expression. I then tell the story in different words, I also add what the music leaves out, or even contradict it. It's clear that this doesn't really work in a ronda, where most participants can only respond to the speech with nods and affirmations on the beat.

When I was reading this it stuck me that may be we can divide dancers into two categories when it comes to dancing to the music. One who follow the music when dancing. Primary dance mode is reacting to the music. Second is those that want to converse with the music. Music to them is like a co-equal companion in the dance. Of course it is spectrum between the two. Reading the above makes it sound like you tend more towards the first type - follow the music.

I think a similar divide also exists in leader-follower dynamic.

Human feelings and human behavior, like other biochemical values or morphological traits, are more or less subject to a Gaussian normal distribution. In this respect, I have to acknowledge that music must not equally represent such an authoritarian force for everyone as it does for me.

Kind of reinforces my point that you are towards the end of spectrum that follows the music.

 

[Pryn]

I realize the request was for experienced ballroom dancers to weigh-in, but when have I let that stop me before...

The first video (presented several pages ago) didn't inspire me to want to dance. I felt like I was watching new and newish dancers with low confidence trying to practice steps most of the time. The dancers who knew what they were doing were more smooth in their movements and the movement flowed better from one figure to another in a private dance conversation that I felt I was not meant to hear. It just didn't exude any emotion or livelihood to me. So, I found it harder for me to engage with their dancing.

The second video people were living their best life and it showed. Dancers of different levels, but they seemed like they were enjoying themselves with little regard to who was watching. I felt I could tell the emotions they were feeling in the moment. Some were fluent and had a great command of their dance language, others enjoyed chatting in simple phrases. It was something I wanted to watch and experience along with them.

So, like most others said, #2 is my preferred scene.

In reference to reasons to social partner dance...

When I was reading this it stuck me that may be we can divide dancers into two categories when it comes to dancing to the music. One who follow the music when dancing. Primary dance mode is reacting to the music. Second is those that want to converse with the music. Music to them is like a co-equal companion in the dance. Of course it is spectrum between the two. Reading the above makes it sound like you tend more towards the first type - follow the music.

I think a similar divide also exists in leader-follower dynamic.

I see myself falling into the 2nd group. I react to music as a dance partner. It tells me what to do, which shapes to make with my body, which expressions to have on my face, et al. The leader who "gets" me leaves space for this to happen and if I'm lucky, plays along and participates in an imaginary story being told.

The leaders who have their own emotions without regards to the music are harder for me to follow because the music is often the most influential partner. It helps if my leader's emotional journey is in a similar vein as the music. This is the kind of musicality that I enjoy the most.

In final analysis, I guess I'd rank it thus:

1. Move...
2. ...with another person...
3. ...expressively...
4. ...to music...
5. ...in a like-minded crowd.

So, while I'm in total agreement with @fiesta0618 's five reasons to social partner dance, I'd move #4 to second place and just shift the rest down (in the same order).

 

[TTanguero]

In final analysis, I guess I'd rank it thus:

1. Move...
2. ...with another person...
3. ...expressively...
4. ...to music...
5. ...in a like-minded crowd.

My lifelong identity as an athlete who particularly enjoys team sports makes this breakdown pretty easy to understand, I would surmise. I am first and foremost motivated by doing & moving in an active way, more so than any activity that is principally sensory or passive. And with music so far down my list, it stands to reason that I would enjoy Y&B so much even if they are "over the music" by most sensibilities.

Makes sense, and certainly we're agreed that all of these elements are essential to social dance. I would place the type of movement in bottom place, so long as we are able to respond to the music together.

 

[TTanguero]

One who follow the music when dancing. Primary dance mode is reacting to the music. Second is those that want to converse with the music. Music to them is like a co-equal companion in the dance.

Yes. Another way of thinking about this is that the music is the leader, but the dancers are active followers who don't just blindly obey the lead, but rather respond to it sympathetically and expressively.

 

[opendoor]

Yes. Another way of thinking about this is that the music is the leader, but the dancers are active followers...

And since the music is the ultimate authority for me, my dance partner comes second, not to mention the other dance couples, who are essentially just a nuisance on the dance floor. And I really don't mean that in a provocative or even malicious way. When social dancing, I have to pretend and dancing always is a compromise for me, because if I listen too much to the follower, I'm left out. And as soon as the dance floor is too crowded, I have no desire to dance at all. I often dance alone at home after a milonga, because I'm actually a well-behaved person who respects my dance partner and the codigos of the ronda.

 

[Steve Pastor]

the primary connection point in AT is higher up on the torso, which opens up space in the feet for more varied on-the-spot movement. For example, you cannot dance Cross system in Ballroom, only Parallel, because of the tight space in the legs, and moves like Molinete are only done by high-level showdancers who break the rules a little to allow it.

I rarely get a chance to comment on something that hasn't been followed by dozens of posts, so when I saw this...
I am hardly a high level dancer, but I learned how to lead/dance molinetes in a very definite, significant weight sharing embrace, and I'm pretty sure we didn't break any rules. Is there a clarification or explanation of what rules are broken?

 

[Steve Pastor]

as soon as the dance floor is too crowded, I have no desire to dance at all. I often dance alone at home after a milonga, because I'm actually a well-behaved person who respects my dance partner and the codigos of the ronda.

I enjoy the challenge of dancing in a crowd, IF the rest of the crowd is dancing carefully as it was at Lo de Celia those years ago. My weekly country western dancing is on a floor and with a crowd that is challenging because most of them have no idea about line of dance, not taking a large back step in the line of dance, demonstrating Brownian Motion, etc. Somehow I manage to avoid collisions and I can pat myself on the back for that. I think it's good for maintaining certain mental and physical abilities (not the patting on the back, but the avoiding!). I am MUCH less tolerant of careless dancing in AT; so much so that I've been avoiding certain places.

 

[fiesta0618]

I am hardly a high level dancer, but I learned how to lead/dance molinetes in a very definite, significant weight sharing embrace, and I'm pretty sure we didn't break any rules. Is there a clarification or explanation of what rules are broken?

I was comparing Ballroom to AT.

In order to do a molinete in Ballroom, you have to give up body contact.

 

[TTanguero]

And as soon as the dance floor is too crowded, I have no desire to dance at all.

For me, that's 100% dependent on the floorcraft. Poor means zero desire to dance, excellent makes it even more enjoyable as the couples are also dancing with each other.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Yes – I'm referring to social dance.

I do agree with you about most tango performances. It's perhaps one of the reasons I don't normally enjoy watching them. I wrote about Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh & Maria Filali being a rare exception at last year's Sheffield Tango Festival. I'd be interested to see whether you have the same view – that the dance very much had things to say.

Wow, simply wow!

 

[opendoor]

Yes – I'm referring to social dance.

I do agree with you about most tango performances. It's perhaps one of the reasons I don't normally enjoy watching them. I wrote about Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh & Maria Filali being a rare exception at last year's Sheffield Tango Festival. I'd be interested to see whether you have the same view – that the dance very much had things to say.

Yes and no!
Both definitely delivered a well-thought-out, inventive, and entertaining performance. But somehow I don't like their styling. Maria and Gianpiero were my favorites for a long time (Gianpiero is currently performing here on DF with Lorena, see above). But I found Maria with Gianpiero much better, more balanced, and also more progressive. Simply because Maria was the older and more experienced dancer, which is completely unusual in our scene. I've even danced socially with Sigrid before. She gave a mini-workshop in Hamburg 16 years ago, and we danced casually after work. She's a decent dancer.