What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[Tango Distance]

Perhaps the best way for me to understand it is this.

... My favorite writers tend to be those who employ so-called "windowpane prose," where the language is unobtrusive and you hardly notice it.

But plenty of folks find windowpane prose deadly boring. They want to read lovingly crafted language that is halfway to poetry, so called "stained-glass prose." Some are even willing to forgive mediocre storytelling, if the writer's style is sufficiently emotional and moving.

I see my dance preferences as reflective of that. I do not revel in the medium of communication; I want the medium to be easy and unobtrusive so that I can get on to the truly interesting (to me) things. But connection really is magic, so it is also possible to sit and revel in the communication even if you do nothing with it. I see that as similar to enjoying stained-glass prose. ...

Great post, that's a good way to describe 2 different styles.
In my mind, it has been "Of course obvious and clear leading is best!"
After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?
With just one follower, a super good teacher, I would play games (that were also good practice in some ways):

• Gradually make the lead later and later
• Gradually make the lead softer and softer
• Give less and less input for decisions, like stepping in front vs. in back
• A bit of upper body motion that doesn't result in a step the first time, but does the 2nd time. (It's a mystery to me how followers can tell the 1st one is a false start, and the 2nd one is the "real" one, but the good ones can. Amazing!)
• Indicate a step is coming, but make it less clear on which beat, and suddenly take off on that beat (I had someone lead me this way once, it was awesome! Are we going? Are we going? We're going!). This one I would do with others.

In retrospect, this was good practice for seeing how much overhead I had in my lead with a really good follower. Beginners might need all that overhead. An expert needs less, so you can squeeze in more things in a shorter time.

 

[lucia_l]

After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?

Not me!!!

With just one follower, a super good teacher, I would play games (that were also good practice in some ways):

Ok. But I think some of the things you are saying you will experiment with have nothing to do with "clarity".

• Gradually make the lead later and later

Later is sometimes correct and can be perfectly clear. There is such a thing as too early. Obviously simultaneously unclear and too late is difficult. But if a lead knows what he's doing, he can give clear leads that are "almost the last minute the follow needs to do something". That can result in some snappy motions (if the follow waits for the lead.)

• Gradually make the lead softer and softer

Softness has very little to do with clarity. There is also such a thing as too hard and too jerky and still unclear.

• Give less and less input for decisions, like stepping in front vs. in back

Leads that give no input for decisions are clear. Over controlling leads can be "not fun" for the follower, but they are clear.

• A bit of upper body motion that doesn't result in a step the first time, but does the 2nd time. (It's a mystery to me how followers can tell the 1st one is a false start, and the 2nd one is the "real" one, but the good ones can. Amazing!)

Excellent followers often know what steps are possible and what things are clearly "not the step". They can follow unclear leads. That doesn't make unclear leads good or preferred. It just means they can cope with it. (Excellent leads can cope with follower mistakes too.)

Intentionally adding things that really are false starts sounds like a bad policy.

• An expert needs less, so you can squeeze in more things in a shorter time.

Heck, an expert can do what you intend when your lead is c*ap!

 

[Bailango]

In my mind, it has been "Of course obvious and clear leading is best!"
After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?
With just one follower, a super good teacher, I would play games (that were also good practice in some ways):

• Gradually make the lead later and later
• Gradually make the lead softer and softer
• Give less and less input for decisions, like stepping in front vs. in back
• A bit of upper body motion that doesn't result in a step the first time, but does the 2nd time. (It's a mystery to me how followers can tell the 1st one is a false start, and the 2nd one is the "real" one, but the good ones can. Amazing!)
• Indicate a step is coming, but make it less clear on which beat, and suddenly take off on that beat (I had someone lead me this way once, it was awesome! Are we going? Are we going? We're going!). This one I would do with others.

In retrospect, this was good practice for seeing how much overhead I had in my lead with a really good follower. Beginners might need all that overhead. An expert needs less, so you can squeeze in more things in a shorter time.

I fully agree with @lucia_l ’s response above to your post.

My reactions as I was reading your post:

- conflating clear lead with different things
- is he trying to justify non-clarity in leading
- why would any follower prefer less clear lead
- later and softer has nothing to do with clarity of the lead
- if there is clarity, a follower can follow very last minute lead.
- not sure the point you were trying to make.

As about false start, after dancing years, followers can tell. Best followers “wait” for leader to “move”. By “move” I mean where the leader has committed to move and will not change (except in case of danger).

As a follower in class, I can do what you called “amazing” though I am not a follower. I only follow in classes. Which I take rarely.

 

[pianistamediano]

After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?

One commonality I've noticed in all my privates is the astonishing clarity of my teachers whenever they lead me; there is no room for ambiguity, yet I still have space to put my own touch on things. This despite my rusty follower's instincts.

They are confused when I lead something unfamiliar, but it is when they realise what I'm trying to lead — or when I support them and give them time to recover — that they giggle or smile. It is not the same when I hesitate or change my mind at the last instant.

There is a very big difference between leading something they don't know clearly and unambiguously, versus a less clear lead that makes their train of thought/flow stutter and breaks the immersion.

Flowery or not, a gaudy, garish but well-sharpened knife still cuts better than an elegant blunt knife.

 

[fiesta0618]

After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?

That is an interesting question! But it's going in a bit of a different direction than I was thinking.

I was imagining a case where the lead is crystal clear in all respects. I have always felt that the quality of a lead is directly proportional to its clarity, always. Though your post makes me want to interrogate the edges of that assumption a little.

Anyway, even within the realm of perfect clarity, there are still two different sensations that clear communication can have.

One is when the couple executes some pattern, and one or both of them says "Wow! That felt amazing! I understood everything that you were thinking and feeling with exquisite detail!"

Another sensation within clear communication is this. The couple executes a pattern, then looks at each other with furrowed brows. "Did I lead that? Did you? Or was it telepathy? All I know is one minute we were over there, and now we're over here, perfectly in sync. Spooky!"

The first case is what I would call a Stained-Glass league, and the second is Windowpane.

 

[Tango Distance]

To clarify:

• A clear lead seems to be clearly the clear choice, but Mr. Curious Character here wondered if there could be exceptions (people or steps).
• "Less clear" vs. clear and not clear

Lucia, that's a great point about a late lead leading to a snappy motion. I might be doing that intuitively... maybe... but now I have a conscious touch point for improving my dance. You also gave good clarifications that late can be clear, and soft can be clear.

I like the time aspect. Late = less time to do it, so you can do more things in the same amount of time!

Yes, late can be clear, but it seems would be less clear that an early lead. Early lead = more time to realize it, more time for more lead or even try again, etc. Counter example: In basketball you want to be as unclear as possible -- you wait to the last moment and then suddenly do something, hoping the other player can't follow you.

Examples I was thinking of for "false starts":

• Little step, then big step, same foot
• 1/10 of a boleo, then the whole thing
• Leg project, retract, then step
• A little contrabody with no step, and then with a step

Why would any follower want a less clear lead? Why like mysteries? Why like guessing games? Anecdotal story: For probably the most popular leader in my old area, the follows would tell me he was very hard to follow. That was actually part of my ask, clearly the ladies liked something. He did have a huge vocabulary.

pianistamediano: It is great to get good instruction on how to lead better (and for that matter, follow better, too!). I'm told regularly, by a wide range of levels of experience, that I have a clear lead. I'm also tactfully told I'm a pretty bad follower! I was having a heck of a time following a couple of female instructors. Then one night they were very short follows, so I followed several of the very experienced leads in our community. Wow, it was magic, things just happened!

As about false start, after dancing years, followers can tell. Best followers “wait” for leader to “move”. By “move” I mean where the leader has committed to move and will not change (except in case of danger).

As a follower in class, I can do what you called “amazing” though I am not a follower. I only follow in classes. Which I take rarely.

Classes are generally choreographed, so I probably wouldn't call it amazing in that case. Someone I haven't met before, who has not been doing Tango for very long, and something like that goes perfect on the first try at a Milonga... now that's amazing!

Another sensation within clear communication is this. The couple executes a pattern, then looks at each other with furrowed brows. "Did I lead that? Did you? Or was it telepathy? All I know is one minute we were over there, and now we're over here, perfectly in sync. Spooky!"

Great paragraph, I like it!

​

 

[opendoor]

....After reading your post, I wonder if some followers might like a more flowery but less clear lead? Perhaps a lead that is a bit of a mystery?

I think that has less to do with character than with the leader's training. Once they've learned projection, lead, by definition, is as precise as remote control. But many leaders, however, can't project at all. I can lead with and without projection, which was the cause of a disagreement in the other thread.

..as a lead, it depends on various factors whether I project every move or engage in "active following" or "collective leading"..

 

[Miradamiranda]

I was imagining a case where the lead is crystal clear in all respects. I have always felt that the quality of a lead is directly proportional to its clarity, always. Though your post makes me want to interrogate the edges of that assumption a little.

A clear lead doesn’t have to mean there’s no room for interpretation.

The leader invites the follower to make a move. He suggests something. He doesn’t MAKE the follower move. She can then decide a counter suggestion would be better and go that way. When is a counter suggestion not appropriate? When she senses the leader doesn’t have the improvisational ability to react, when she senses his personality doesn’t like receiving such input, when she senses there’s a good reason to, like an obstacle behind her, and when she senses that what the leader has in mind is simply the better and most interesting and logical thing to do. Then, she can decide the timing (except if he is shoving her), so the moment she takes the step will fit the music with the right energy better than what he suggested. Maybe she just wants to throw him a curve ball for the fun of it to see how he reacts. Not as a provocation but to have a bit of fun. I’ve noticed many of my partners appreciate some fun surprises, especially welcoming a bit of humor in the dance.
The stained glass imagery is fitting. Sometimes a bit of color is added by the follower to good effect. He provides the window and she decorates it. Other times it’s a negative, as in, her window decoration - getting out of control or context - gets in the way of the clear glass view.
If he only dances with a clear window pane approach without letting her contribute any extra color, it CAN make the follower feel like she is just a puppet, or that the window is purely utilitarian. Obviously, having overly decorated stained glass on a racing car windshield would endanger everyone and be completely inappropriate.
Is the frilly fluffy prose (stained glass, adornos) getting in the way of the essence of the story? It sure can. The above was with the follower in mind as the window pane adorning force. But turned around, if the leader adorns his lead with one overly fancy (empty) move after the other, this equals obscuring the story. If his lead is too utilitarian (window pane) and obvious and controlling, both partners miss out on the opportunity to add some spice and color.

 

[Miradamiranda]

One more thing I wanted to add… if the lead is late, early, or ambiguous, I can take it as an invitation to take some liberties. But if there is too much ambiguity, I might as well be dancing with a chair.

 

[Bailango]

But if there is too much ambiguity, I might as well be dancing with a chair.

But the chair is static with zero ambiguity

 

[Miradamiranda]

But the chair is static with zero ambiguity

And boring. My chair doesn’t communicate with me.

 

[Bailango]

My chair doesn’t communicate with me.

That can be fixed. A chair that reacts to music by vibrating, tilting, revolving, etc like those musical fountains or lighting. But do you want that

 

[opendoor]

… if the lead is late, early, or ambiguous, I can take it as an invitation to take some liberties.

But then both dancers aren't on the same level. You're exploiting the leader's shortcomings. Where I go to contact improv, all participants dance on equal terms.

 

[Miradamiranda]

He could be early late or ambiguous on purpose. Also, I don’t only dance with leaders my own level. In addition, I’ve had guys tell me, sometimes years later, that they appreciated that I in the past (in practicas and/or in milongas) opened their minds towards the 2-way communication aspect of tango. That they learned they didn’t have to keep the moves moves moves coming coming coming, and that they also can trust that I can make appropriate decisions about timing.

 

[lucia_l]

I like the time aspect. Late = less time to do it, so you can do more things in the same amount of time!

Later but clear is sometimes "just the right time". The perfect time for some leads is when the lead doesn't merely communicate "I want you to do X", it actually helps the follow do X.

Yes, late can be clear, but it seems would be less clear that an early lead. Early lead = more time to realize it, more time for more lead or even try again, etc.

Not always. Too early a lead can be more confusing because you are being instructed to do something when it is not yet possible to do it. Lead follow isn't like being given a list or a recipe to follow.

Why would any follower want a less clear lead?

I never do.

Why like mysteries? Why like guessing games? Anecdotal story: For probably the most popular leader in my old area, the follows would tell me he was very hard to follow. That was actually part of my ask, clearly the ladies liked something. He did have a huge vocabulary.

Maybe. But it sounds like, perhaps, they tolerated the unclear leads because of some other attribute.