What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[Miradamiranda]

Why like mysteries? Why like guessing games? Anecdotal story: For probably the most popular leader in my old area, the follows would tell me he was very hard to follow. That was actually part of my ask, clearly the ladies liked something. He did have a huge vocabulary.

Why should everything be easy, I could counter.

Overcoming challenges is satisfactory. I remember a partner back in my salsa days. He was so full of fast technical tricks and surprises that I really had to stay on my toes (figuratively and literally). When he danced with others, I’d point out to whoever was sitting next to me, look how every lady who dances with him has a facial expression of fear in their face. Or extreme alertness, at least. That’s not enjoyable. UNTIL you yourself are good enough to handle it. That particular guy, I’ve danced with him regularly for 15 years at least. He constantly renewed himself with more tricks. Never boring. But to be honest, it was only the last 5 years of those 15 where I could really enjoy it.

Back to tango, I most definitely frequently dance with non-optimal partners who have some other redeeming qualities.

 

[lucia_l]

Why should everything be easy, I could counter.

Overcoming challenges is satisfactory. I remember a partner back in my salsa days. He was so full of fast technical tricks and surprises that I really had to stay on my toes (figuratively and literally).

But the challenge here isn't unclear leading. We all like to be lead through more challenging steps and figures if they are closer to the top of our ability. We even like being lead in figures we are unfamiliar with if the lead is clear.

But the challenge of dealing with unclear leading where the dancing is difficult because you have to spend the whole time guessing at even simple things is not a fun one.

 

[Miradamiranda]

You have a good point, but I don’t mind at all the challenge that is dancing with not so experienced leaders, trying to make them look good and get motivated to become better. Some might say it’s generous, but I see it as an investment in future leaders shaped the way I want them. There are more than enough guys out there who feel they need to keep building more and more fancy moves instead of developing true improvisational, musical, and communication skills.

 

[Bailango]

Leaders dance with inexperienced followers. Followers dance with inexperienced leaders. We get that. I will like to think most dancers do that.

However the topic seems to veer off “unclear leads”. Can we agree that “unclear lead” is not a positive or good thing. There is nothing redeeming about “unclear lead”.

Inexperience dancers, you can expect their leads to be non clear since they are still in learning phrase. The hope is they will get better with time.

There are many dancers who have been dancing for a long time that have unclear leads and leads that lack clarity.

 

[pianistamediano]

There are many dancers who have been dancing for a long time that have unclear leads and leads that lack clarity.

You need not grant them the title of experienced dancer, you know — especially if you'd like the term to imply some degree of competence!

(You could very well argue that that experience necessarily includes adequate experience of clear leading, which by definition unclear leaders do not have...)

 

[TTanguero]

You need not grant them the title of experienced dancer, you know — especially if you'd like the term to imply some degree of competence!

Iona Italia has a term for leaders who stop taking lessons and developing as soon as they can dance as much as they like: "the long-term beginner."

 

[opendoor]

..Can we agree that “unclear lead” is not a positive or good thing.

I did, because I see it the same way you do. But I got beaten here for it!

 

[lucia_l]

There are many dancers who have been dancing for a long time that have unclear leads and leads that lack clarity.

Yes. I don't mind dancing with beginner leads who are unclear. They generally only know very, very few moves. So even if it's not well lead, I know what they are leading.

It's the "intermediates" who think they know a ton of moves-- all lead unclearly-- who are impossible to dance with!

 

[Brummbaer]

It's the "intermediates" who think they know a ton of moves-- all lead unclearly-- who are impossible to dance with!

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that many, leaders and followers, would benefit from taking lessons, it's 'social' in life's 'school of dance', so expect a spectrum of quality rather than sorted by competition or passing standards. We're all 'intermediate' when ranked against some standard.

 

[JournalInTime]

It's the "intermediates" who think they know a ton of moves-- all lead unclearly-- who are impossible to dance with!

One of the biggest problems in tango! (Other dance might have it, too . . . I cannot say.) A certain kind of leader thinks they know movements, but they don't know anything but a vague recipe until they can lead those movements (1) clearly, (2) linked fluidly to movements before and after, (3) to the music (that's playing, not in their head or that they practiced to, or no music at all), and (4) without blocking the line of dance or causing collisions. All. Four.

What they should do is avoid those movements at the milonga until they can dance them clearly enough, fluidly enough, musically enough, and compactly enough. To achieve this, they can dance them in front of a mirror, in front of a teacher, or with practice partners in a private studio or at prácticas. Once their eyes, their teachers' eyes, and their practice partners all agree that the movements are working well enough, they can try them at the milonga.

Unfortunately, the culture of "practice outside the milonga, dance what you've practiced at the milonga" is dead or dying. Many dancers don't practice. Others see no difference between a milonga and a práctica. To a great extent the blame rests with schools and individual teachers being willing to teach anything to anyone to make a buck, and not verbally underlining, in boldface, "Now go practice this until we agree it is ready for the milonga." Some schools don't even offer prácticas, which should be a red flag in itself.

Instead, these schools and teachers are exposing people to movements without truly teaching them, much less taking reputational responsibility for their students' behavior. One local place is especially annoying, teaching what I'd describe as oversized show steps and, when students try them at the milonga, literally cheering them on from the sidelines. That's 100% on the school's and its teachers' heads.

But also, people are coming to tango with the attitude, "I paid to be shown this move, so I'm going to dance it!" When I started tango in 2013, that didn't seem to be a common attitude. I'm not sure when it became common, but I started to find it annoying to dance around the after pandemic lockdowns ended. That might just be me having achieved more perspective after more than a decade of dancing and two years of a pandemic forbidding dance at milongas (but maybe that is the issue . . . I think the pandemic created a lot of "YouTube masters").

I will say that it isn't just "intermediates" who are guilty. Plenty of advanced dancers do it. The difference is this:

We're all 'intermediate' when ranked against some standard.

"Career beginners" do it with real beginners, intermediates do it with beginners, advanced dancers do it with intermediates, etc. Even local teachers who attend "advanced+ masterclasses" reserved for teachers are sometimes guilty of seeing a movement in a two-hour workshop with "tango royalty" and assuming that they can just dance it without practice. What changes is the amount of practice needed (which does diminish with experience, but never to zero) and the potential degree of harm (career beginners actually hurt people, while advanced+ teachers are mostly just annoying).

At every level, the sort of leader who's guilty of this seeks external validation of performance and worth, whether that's "impressing and winning the admiration of less advanced people" or "attracting students to pay for lessons." It'd be swell if they danced for invisible reasons like self-improvement and sharing a moment of communication, but the majority attitudes these days seem to be "dance like everybody is watching" and "dance the tanda not for your current partner, but for the next one who is watching from the sidelines."

 

[JournalInTime]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that many, leaders and followers, would benefit from taking lessons, it's 'social' in life's 'school of dance', so expect a spectrum of quality rather than sorted by competition or passing standards.

That's reasonable . . . up to a point, at least.

Not everybody gives tango a large enough place in their life to devote significant time, money, and energy to it. We can't fairly expect them to do otherwise. "I've reached a point where the dedication and expense are no longer producing big enough jumps in skill to be justified for the few hours a month I spend dancing" – while disappointing to me – isn't a real problem. The pastime vs. passion divide exists in all activities.

However, there is a concerning and growing number of people whose attitude is more this: "Lessons – even private ones with the best teachers – are a scam. I'm going to show them all by approaching their skill level through my own efforts. I'm just that talented and brilliant!"

My suspicion is that the explosion of online "lessons" is one cause. Another is more subtle, and that's the transformation of tango from a local, even neighborhood dance that's more social, yes, but also "policed" by local standards, to a dance where it's common to fly by night (literally!). It has never been easier to see the secrets of the masters and try to emulate them at a steady stream of milongas across the city by fast car or the world by fast plane until one achieves some semblance of competence. It's what media-studies people like to call "democratization," which sounds positive until you realize it really means "mediocritization."

 

[tangoing]

One of the biggest problems in tango! (Other dance might have it, too . . . I cannot say.) A certain kind of leader thinks they know movements, but they don't know anything but a vague recipe until they can lead those movements (1) clearly, (2) linked fluidly to movements before and after, (3) to the music (that's playing, not in their head or that they practiced to, or no music at all), and (4) without blocking the line of dance or causing collisions. All. Four.

What they should do is avoid those movements at the milonga until they can dance them clearly enough, fluidly enough, musically enough, and compactly enough. To achieve this, they can dance them in front of a mirror, in front of a teacher, or with practice partners in a private studio or at prácticas. Once their eyes, their teachers' eyes, and their practice partners all agree that the movements are working well enough, they can try them at the milonga.

Unfortunately, the culture of "practice outside the milonga, dance what you've practiced at the milonga" is dead or dying. Many dancers don't practice. Others see no difference between a milonga and a práctica. To a great extent the blame rests with schools and individual teachers being willing to teach anything to anyone to make a buck, and not verbally underlining, in boldface, "Now go practice this until we agree it is ready for the milonga." Some schools don't even offer prácticas, which should be a red flag in itself.

Instead, these schools and teachers are exposing people to movements without truly teaching them, much less taking reputational responsibility for their students' behavior. One local place is especially annoying, teaching what I'd describe as oversized show steps and, when students try them at the milonga, literally cheering them on from the sidelines. That's 100% on the school's and its teachers' heads.

But also, people are coming to tango with the attitude, "I paid to be shown this move, so I'm going to dance it!" When I started tango in 2013, that didn't seem to be a common attitude. I'm not sure when it became common, but I started to find it annoying to dance around the after pandemic lockdowns ended. That might just be me having achieved more perspective after more than a decade of dancing and two years of a pandemic forbidding dance at milongas (but maybe that is the issue . . . I think the pandemic created a lot of "YouTube masters").

I will say that it isn't just "intermediates" who are guilty. Plenty of advanced dancers do it. The difference is this:

"Career beginners" do it with real beginners, intermediates do it with beginners, advanced dancers do it with intermediates, etc. Even local teachers who attend "advanced+ masterclasses" reserved for teachers are sometimes guilty of seeing a movement in a two-hour workshop with "tango royalty" and assuming that they can just dance it without practice. What changes is the amount of practice needed (which does diminish with experience, but never to zero) and the potential degree of harm (career beginners actually hurt people, while advanced+ teachers are mostly just annoying).

At every level, the sort of leader who's guilty of this seeks external validation of performance and worth, whether that's "impressing and winning the admiration of less advanced people" or "attracting students to pay for lessons." It'd be swell if they danced for invisible reasons like self-improvement and sharing a moment of communication, but the majority attitudes these days seem to be "dance like everybody is watching" and "dance the tanda not for your current partner, but for the next one who is watching from the sidelines."

Agree. However I think there is a gray area for beginner / intermediate leads that they just need practice at the dance in general, so even though they can’t perform movements clearly based on your 4 criterias at milongas, they basically wouldn’t be dancing otherwise since even their basic movements such as walking and leading ochos are sloppy, and in today’s age they’re not going to practice those elements for 2+ years just to begin dancing at a milonga.
There is a limit to it though, there is a beginner lead in the community (i think dancing for at least 1.5 years), who constantly does extremely static movements such as super long paradas and calesitas, and basically clogs up the ronda especially if it’s a vals.
Apparently all the beginner/intermediate follows just give him pity dances, since even they are aware how he dances doesn’t really have a tango flow to it.

 

[lucia_l]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that many, leaders and followers, would benefit from taking lessons, it's 'social' in life's 'school of dance', so expect a spectrum of quality rather than sorted by competition or passing standards. We're all 'intermediate' when ranked against some standard.

Sure. Everyone is an intermediate in some sense.

But it is the case there are people who go to lots of group lessons, focus on learning a "new pattern" every week, superficially learn to lead and then throw "everything they know" at a follow. My opinion is these are painful to dance with. It's no fun.

Frequently, they think "follows need a lot of moves to be entertained". Well.... yeah... no. It is true that a variety of moves is great if they are lead clearly. But if they are badly lead, someone sticking to one of two very simple things is more fun. At least it's more fun for me.

If leads first focus on leading a limited number of patterns clearly, that's usually more fun for follows. If leads focus on learning a multiple patterns without focusing on whether the follows are actually able to tell what is lead, that's torture. Are both intermediate in some sense? Sure. The first in knowing few patterns-- but that's fine. The second in leading badly-- that's sort of torture.

 

[JournalInTime]

However I think there is a gray area for beginner / intermediate leads that they just need practice at the dance in general, so even though they can’t perform movements clearly based on your 4 criterias at milongas, they basically wouldn’t be dancing otherwise since even their basic movements such as walking and leading ochos are sloppy, and in today’s age they’re not going to practice those elements for 2+ years just to begin dancing at a milonga.

I agree.

I don't think that asking people to practice for years before attending the milonga ever made sense – not in any day and age! Humans aren't built that way. The reward cycle is too long. This is why I put four italicized instances of "enough" in "until they can dance them clearly enough, fluidly enough, musically enough, and compactly enough."

I realize that "enough" is vague and subjective, but even a month might suffice for simple things like ochos, and shouldn't keep anyone from dancing at the milonga. Also, it can be rolled forward. If a leader starts lessons on Day 0 and practices what they learn that day for a month, they can be dancing that at the milonga in a month . . . and then the stuff from Day d at the same milonga d/7 weeks later.

I'm not sure that dancing at the milonga in the first month of lessons makes any sense, though! Anyone who can't wait even that long has a patience problem that's only going to make them a worse dancer over time, as they encounter more complex movements and as they dance with more followers who expect the leader to show patience in the dance.

It's like the performance-obsessed hotheads proclaiming, "I want to dance tomorrow!" and the dire traditionalists grumbling, "You can't dance for a couple of years!", and compromising at a geometric average of a month.

Of course, people who can't compromise – on either side – are a separate issue.

There is a limit to it though, there is a beginner lead in the community (i think dancing for at least 1.5 years), who constantly does extremely static movements such as super long paradas and calesitas, and basically clogs up the ronda especially if it’s a vals.

We have those here. One in particular has an obsession with static movements alongside a lack of respect for what differentiates vals and milonga from tango – not musically, but dynamically and kinetically. I'd excuse it after a month or a year, but after three years I've run out of patience with dancing behind him. He has entrenched bad habits and, worse, is taking a course in how to be a tango teacher . . . so he can entrench those bad habits in others.

Apparently all the beginner/intermediate follows just give him pity dances, since even they are aware how he dances doesn’t really have a tango flow to it.

Huh. This guy I mentioned is the darling of a lot of followers, because his static movements show them off and don't require them to have a good walking dance. They can decorate calesitas while he does all the work, or practice every gancho known to tango while he contorts himself weirdly to make them work . . . even to marching music and swift valses that should advance and turn.

What's disappointing is that these followers start thinking that they can dance well because they can sort-of follow complicated, off-the-music movements with this guy. Then the stare at me for an invitation, and when I simply walk, or dance progressive turns or cadenas in vals, they fall badly behind the music and struggle to keep up. And then they tell people that this guy is a good dancer and I'm a bad one because somebody told them it was my job to "dance down" to them.

So, I've started to refuse to dance with this guy's fan club. They can dance with him. I have 12+ years of better follower friends to dance with. The amusing bit is that several of these fans have noticed that I and a couple of other leaders are doing this, and have stopped dancing with him in order to learn to dance with people who actually move to the music. We can dream that this will continue and offset his eventual teaching career in bad habits . . .

 

[lucia_l]

One of the biggest problems in tango! (Other dance might have it, too . . . I cannot say.)

I think it's universal! Am-am competition actually really, really helps. This is provided both partners want to focus on improving the lead follow. There are 'small' mysterious issues that can't be covered in group classes, will not be sorted out when dancing socially (owing to some degree of social politeness) and which even pro-Am dancing might defer fixing. The somewhat legitimate reason for deferring fixing is because the pro can "dance around" the issue. The am partner can't.

The final one is a somewhat legitimate if the goal is a showcase or a competition. But it's really terrible if the goal is social dancing. Unfortunately, it's also a method that can help retain students because the leads don't know they aren't leading right. They continue to not know they are leading unclearly even if almost no social follows really follow.