What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[lucia_l]

I don't think the discomfort problem around here is cultural. It's something else. It could be that the classes were taught by ballroomers. At this point, I honestly think ballroomers should just have their own "Ballroom AT", and drop the embrace. We already have International, American Smooth and AT. We could perfectly well have "Ballroom AT" which retains decorations and skips the A frame embrace.

That's honestly what a lot of students who want to stay at the "club" level and dance one of two AT's mixed in with other dances want. Why not have it.

"True" ATer could be horrified. But people get horrified at "lack of purity". That doesn't keep Bachata from transforming into a ton of things that lots of people enjoy. And the "true" Bachata teachers I know are aware of and discuss all of the forms.

Ok... all of you all will probably want to kick me off the Tango forums now.

 

[Rabbit]

I don't think the discomfort problem around here is cultural. It's something else. It could be that the classes were taught by ballroomers. At this point, I honestly think ballroomers should just have their own "Ballroom AT", and drop the embrace. We already have International, American Smooth and AT. We could perfectly well have "Ballroom AT" which retains decorations and skips the A frame embrace.

I think "ballroom AT" already is its own distinct style. It's just a question of confusing nomenclature

 

[ralf]

WCS? For me there is major obstacle basic step, pattern SLOW-SLOW-TRIPPLE STEP-TRIPPLE STEP is for me almost impossible to automatize. I can dance WCS basic steps in line, but when I try to do some turns or figures, I am lost in counting TRIPPLE STEPS. This discomfort caused lost of my interest about WCS.

That's mostly just an issue of practice, practice, practice. I learned Lindy Hop before WCS, and they use the same step patterns. I knew I finally had the steps down more than a year after starting when I realized at the end of a song at a social that I had carried on a conversation for the entire song and thus never once counted steps.

 

[opendoor]

..No one dances the "quadrille" anymore..

I do! Some people here in the forum therefore call my posts provocative But quadrilles are often danced in the folk community and in balfolk. I also went to a ball in Vienna when I was young, where the Viennese waltz often alternates with quadrilles and polonaises. And Vienna is the heart of ballroom dancing.

..I have watched Ballroomers.. doing AT .. goal is to do a dance with AT looking decorations, they skip that hold.. zero walking.. just keep the interesting looking stuff..

It sounds like there is a smooth transition from BR to AT in your area?

...These are all bronze-level ballroomers..

If not the Argentinian ⋀-hold, does bronze level imply to master the international standard frame (closed at pelvic level)?

 

[lucia_l]

It sounds like there is a smooth transition from BR to AT in your area?

No. What happens is ballroom dance competitions have a "club night" section. Some people enter that. It's not particularly serious for most people. Often a costume theme is suggested. AT is one of the "club" dances. Some people love club night, but in no way does this push out the main ballroom dances.

If not the Argentinian ⋀-hold, does bronze level imply to master the international standard frame (closed at pelvic level)?

In US ballroom-- NDCA-- competition has levels. They are "Bronze, Silver, Gold". These are syllabus levels, but also correspond to ability levels. I think occassionally there might be an "advanced gold" category? I don't know.

There is also "Open" which can refer to syllabus or to the fact that anyone at any level can enter it. So "Bronze Open" allows any step patters from any syllabus (or even none), but it is indicating that people who are at the proficiency level of dancing Bronze syllabus should be entering, while those who are Gold should stay the heck out!

In contrast, simply "Open" with no metal level is open to people of all proficiency levels. In the past I've been the only Bronze proficiency level dancer entering and naturally came in last. Which was fine.

I'm now more Silverish level, dance open and enter Open. At HOA, Arun congratulated me on not being last. He knows me; knows my goals.

 

[opendoor]

"Bronze, Silver, Gold". These are syllabus levels, but also correspond to ability..

Oh thank you for all the info! But what interests me most is whether the bronze-level dancers dance BR in practice hold or in international standard frame. The standard frame is essentially much harder than the Argentine embrace.

 

[fiesta0618]

But what interests me most is whether the bronze-level dancers dance BR in practice hold or in international standard frame. The standard frame is essentially much harder than the Argentine embrace.

You'll see a mix. The early Bronzies generally do not use body contact, but everybody in a contested Bronze final absolutely will. One cannot reasonably advance to Silver without being somewhat comfortable in body contact.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't think the discomfort problem around here is cultural. It's something else.

I can accept a 'ballroom AT' embrace which is physically uncomfortable in that, as @Rabbit says:

I think "ballroom AT" already is its own distinct style. It's just a question of confusing nomenclature

Ballroom AT seems to have it's embrace, allegedly based on the Valentino-type myth of the smelly gaucho. However, for some, 'close' hold in AT with unknown males or females is outside their initial comfort zone.

We have friends and acquaintances who consider the close hold of AT at least risqué - and even worse when it's not your life partner but some random person at a milonga.

---

Ok... all of you all will probably want to kick me off the Tango forums now.

By no means! Keep commenting

 

[pianistamediano]

Or sometimes manage with a teacher but it's uncomfortable with most students in the class.

It's very interesting that you mention this, because the number one reason why so many beginner/intermediate/≤5 year leaders quit tango is because their follower peers get to dance with better leaders almost immediately.

They often get impatient and frustrated with their leading peers because they're not comparable — you can quite easily feel the disdain and resignment in their embrace and body language — and so many leaders feel unwanted and ignored enough that they give up.

Relatedly, some followers get too used to dancing with professionals in privates, so they refuse to dance with anyone who doesn't even approach a pro level, and then end up ironing their chairs for most of the night or waiting in vain to dance with a visiting pro.

 

[lucia_l]

Oh thank you for all the info! But what interests me most is whether the bronze-level dancers dance BR in practice hold or in international standard frame. The standard frame is essentially much harder than the Argentine embrace.

They definitely don't do BR in practice hold. Since Bronze is a level, it applies to International (Latin and Standard) and American (Rhythm and smooth). Only those dancing Standard would be attempting the Standard frame. I'm in the US. the majority of dancers dance American: Rhythm and Smooth.

As for the observation of relative difficulty: I was discussing discomfort. There is a difference between "harder" and "more uncomfortable".

 

[Bailango]

It's very interesting that you mention this, because the number one reason why so many beginner/intermediate/≤5 year leaders quit tango is because their follower peers get to dance with better leaders almost immediately.

This natural because in the beginning the learning curve for leaders is far steeper. This happens in every type of partner dance with lead and follow dynamics. We all know non-beginner leaders can lead beginner followers. Which makes beginner followers feel like they are dancing. The experience for beginner followers dancing with beginner leaders is suboptimal. That is just the nature of the things.

I don’t see any fix to this challenge. You can’t force beginner followers to dance with beginner leaders. Though I have to say that a lot of beginner followers do dance with their peer leaders. It isn’t as hopeless as one would like to think.

They often get impatient and frustrated with their leading peers because they're not comparable — you can quite easily feel the disdain and resignment in their embrace and body language — and so many leaders feel unwanted and ignored enough that they give up.

I honestly am not sure about the disdain. It can be challenging to dance with a struggling leader. Especially in tango.

 

[opendoor]

As for the observation of relative difficulty: I was discussing discomfort..

Not me, I actually meant it's physically quite demanding when executed correctly. Whether you feel comfortable pressing your pubic bones together is more of a cultural question, and it doesn't really arise in Europe. But we can't have the discussion here about whether the International Standard Frame (Silver and above) or the Argentine Milonguero Embrace (intermediate level) is more demanding, since most people here don't have danced both styles. I just wanted to point out that Standard requires strong glutes and a trained posterior chain, while in Milonguero style it's the other way around.

Added to that is the difficulty of even comparing the AT vs. BR stages of the syllabi. And the A-shaped Milonguero embrace wasn't taught by Argentinians until the turn of the century. Nor is it part of the traditional syllabi of Petróleo, Todaro, Bravo, or Dinzel. The Milonguero style began as a subversive countermovement. And even today, in the "pista" category at the Mundiale, the dancing is not in milonguero style, but tango de salón with its < shaped hold.

 

[opendoor]

I think "ballroom AT" already is its own distinct style..

But my feeling is that this style is disappearing again in Europe. When the TV shows emerged at the beginning of the century, almost all Argentine tango teachers in my hometown had a lucrative side job offering AT courses for WDC professionals. But this trend has noticeably slowed down.

 

[fiesta0618]

Not me, I actually meant it's physically quite demanding when executed correctly. Whether you feel comfortable pressing your pubic bones together is more of a cultural question, ...I just wanted to point out that Standard requires strong glutes and a trained posterior chain, while in Milonguero style it's the other way around.

Whoever trained you in ballroom has done you a great disservice. The contact point is at the ribs, not the hips, precisely because of the mechanical difficulties you name.

 

[opendoor]

..contact point is at the ribs, not the hips..

Or the international standard frame and its mechanics have evolved? I also have the impression that standard couples are no longer striding as deep today.