What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[fiesta0618]

Or the international standard frame and its mechanics have evolved?

It has evolved, but not like that.

Hip contact used to never be used; now it is used sparingly to enlarge static picture lines. It has never been used in motion, because it doesn't work for that.

I also have the impression that standard couples are no longer striding as deep today.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deep."

The evolution over time for the dance stride is to lengthen it as far as possible, moving ever further away from the "light, effortless" English style of the mid-century to something more overtly athletic in character.

 

[lucia_l]

I can accept a 'ballroom AT' embrace which is physically uncomfortable in that, as @Rabbit says:

The "ballroom AT" embrace avoids the discomfort. The discomfort is probably from poor, fail attempts at the correct non-ballroom AT embrace. While one can say, "but that's done wrong", lots of things are done wrong at the beginning. And it's the attempt at the sort of "A frame"-- the non-ballroom AT idea-- that feels really uncomfortable when I -- who is not good at AT dance with other not good at AT partners in group lessons. Unbalanced, tippy, not-in my control, yada, yada.

I know something is wrong, but at least for me with beginner partners, I can try to "hunt around" for something that allows me control of my balance, and I cannot find it. Not having it is always mentally uncomfortable and can be physically uncomfortable.

If we stand with space -- as I see in ballroom club-- I am automatically in control of my own balance. I am not being force into a position where I feel unable to be in control of my own balance.

I can have balance issues in ballroom dances-- everyone does. But the basic beginner positions do not cause me this mental discomfort. And even when we start doing things that put me temporarily out of balance (which is inevitable), I am in control of regaining. (Well, this is provided the lead doesn't jerk, muscle etc. But he isn't supposed to jerk or muscle me into position and very early on, most people know that's bad leading.)

Ballroom AT seems to have it's embrace, allegedly based on the Valentino-type myth of the smelly gaucho. However, for some, 'close' hold in AT with unknown males or females is outside their initial comfort zone.

The "A frame" can feel like I am not in control of my balance. There may be something I can do-- independent of the lead-- to feel in control of my balance, but it's hard to find.

It can be fine with a more advanced lead. But still, if you want to recruit, if basic positions taught to beginners feel mentally and physically uncomfortable" that's going to be a problem.

Maybe some follows love the idea that they are "leaning" and "being held up" by the lead. I don't. I want to feel in control of my own balance.

We have friends and acquaintances who consider the close hold of AT at least risqué - and even worse when it's not your life partner but some random person at a milonga.

I have no issue with it being risque. If I did, closed hold with body contact in smooth would be more risqué. It's not.

The only difficulty with body contact is learning how to do it properly and also moving in tandem. But it never made me feel out of control of my own balance.

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By no means! Keep commenting

Ok.

 

[Rabbit]

I don’t see any fix to this challenge. You can’t force beginner followers to dance with beginner leaders. Though I have to say that a lot of beginner followers do dance with their peer leaders. It isn’t as hopeless as one would like to think.

It helps if there's something encouraging them to connect with each other outside the class such as a social group or practica

 

[TTanguero]

The "A frame" can feel like I am not in control of my balance. There may be something I can do-- independent of the lead-- to feel in control of my balance, but it's hard to find.

Apilado isn't taught in beginner classes, so if either partner is leaning on the other then that's an error, and should be something the teacher corrects.

Beyond that, there are those here who will argue that apilado is always an illusion, and that each partner is always in their own axis, and others who do not subscribe to that view but would say it is only ever done when both partners are fully on board.

 

[Brummbaer]

It helps if there's something encouraging them to connect with each other outside the class such as a social group or practica

Ah, 'team building' - when it's not contrived.

Better teachers do this. Been part of that in groups, and read of other teachers doing that. Keeps them away from that unfriendly strata of milongas with the strange culture until they're both better and more aware.

 

[Rabbit]

The "ballroom AT" embrace avoids the discomfort. The discomfort is probably from poor, fail attempts at the correct non-ballroom AT embrace. While one can say, "but that's done wrong", lots of things are done wrong at the beginning. And it's the attempt at the sort of "A frame"-- the non-ballroom AT idea-- that feels really uncomfortable when I -- who is not good at AT dance with other not good at AT partners in group lessons. Unbalanced, tippy, not-in my control, yada, yada.

Tbh I think we've looped back to the subject of poor quality teaching here ... if people aren't able to dance in this position comfortably they should not be instructed to use it. Also, it is not compulsory to dance with a pronounced A frame anyway

 

[JournalInTime]

We have friends and acquaintances who consider the close hold of AT at least risqué - and even worse when it's not your life partner but some random person at a milonga.

I can honestly say that I haven't run into this. It might be a cultural thing.

the number one reason why so many beginner/intermediate/≤5 year leaders quit tango is because their follower peers get to dance with better leaders almost immediately.

Yes. The issue isn't so much "followers at my level get to dance with more advanced dancers, so I don't get to dance" as "followers above my level don't dance with me to the same extent that advanced leaders dance with less advanced followers." Which is extremely discouraging where I live, where followers vastly outnumber leaders and grumble about sitting, yet won't dance with newer leaders. It sends the message "You're so bad that even a desperate follower won't dance with you!"

Relatedly, some followers get too used to dancing with professionals in privates, so they refuse to dance with anyone who doesn't even approach a pro level, and then end up ironing their chairs for most of the night or waiting in vain to dance with a visiting pro.

Exactly this. Plenty of the sitting followers I mentioned have set their standards way, way too high. They think they can take credit for how they dance when some pro is correcting for them.

It helps if there's something encouraging them to connect with each other outside the class such as a social group or practica

Definitely. My preference is for the "salon" with a group of acquaintances and friends of mixed levels, setting aside level and instruction, and just talking and sharing tips. I may be able to help a teacher set one up soon, and if so, it will include beginners. We'll see.

Beyond that, there are those here who will argue that apilado is always an illusion, and that each partner is always in their own axis

At its core it's an illusion, in that it's more about moving weight forward than leaning. There's true weight-sharing, but not beyond the critical point where the partner stepping away causes a fall.

Also, it is not compulsory to dance with a pronounced A frame anyway

Precisely so. The only bad frame is the back-leaning one. The movements of AT aren't made for it, or it for them. Every other frame can be made to work. I can dance upright, forward, flat, with a V, and even open, but a back-leaning partner might as well be absent.

 

[Bailango]

What percentage of dancers in your parts dance with A frame or Apilado embrace? I am under impression it went out of style around late 2000s. In the past 15 years I can’t remember any instructors promoting apilado embrace or teaching it. That overlaps with Mundial competition becoming popular. I have only seen may be a dozen mundial videos. I can’t recollect any couples using apilado embrace.

We have one milonga where organizer tries to mix up ballroom dancers with AT dancers. It is a milonga with ballroom dancers (without training in AT). I have been to it only a few times. I didn’t notice ballroom dancers trying to dance AT in apilado embrace or A frame. They struggled with AT but not due to embrace or the frame.

 

[lucia_l]

What percentage of dancers in your parts dance with A frame or Apilado embrace? I am under

Videos shown on here have shown dancers who appear to lean on each other. Maybe I don't know what it's called. Fiesta showed this in a recent conversation


Her center of gravity looks a toward the front as does his. I don't know precisely where it is, but if the CG is in front of their toes, it's difficult to be fully in control of ones balance. You are relying on the other person.

Anyways, this is what I'm referring to as an A. Maybe it's not called that. There were plenty of examples of people around that point in this thread where AT dancers seemed to do this sort of "lean" that seems sort of "A" like.

 

[lucia_l]

I didn’t notice ballroom dancers trying to dance AT in apilado embrace or A frame. They struggled with AT but not due to embrace or the frame.

I must not be making myself clear. The ballroomers doing club dance specifically did NOT try any sort of forward lean. By not trying to do it, they avoid the discomfort.

It's the attempt at the sort of frame I posted as a photo above-- which is ATer doing AT-- that results in discomfort. This discomfort presumably happens when it is done incorrectly. But nevertheless, it's uncomfortable.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

Just about all of the work was done in a dusty studio, in front of a mirror, with somebody who'd spent years in Buenos Aires as the apprentice to a master (if they weren't that apprentice themselves).

Just where, when, and whom are you talking about?

Dancing at the milonga was a big deal that involved getting a nod of approval from a mentor.

This definitely was not the case in the mid-'90s in Montreal.

 

[opendoor]

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Her center of gravity looks a toward the front as does his.. if the CG is in front of their toes, it's difficult to be fully in control of ones balance. You are relying on the other person.

This milonguero embrace (aka apilado) is physically demanding. For years, I've been preaching "lean is an illusion." And yes, I have to provoke again: all those who claim the opposite are simply bad dancers.

 

[Rabbit]

It's the attempt at the sort of frame I posted as a photo above-- which is ATer doing AT-- that results in discomfort. This discomfort presumably happens when it is done incorrectly. But nevertheless, it's uncomfortable.

You can stand like this and remain completely within your own axis by leaning forward from the hip and allowing the pelvis to move back. That's the "illusionary" version. It is not easy to determine how much the partners are actually leaning on each other from the outside.

I personally prefer to just stand upright anyway and generate any forward lean from the ankles

 

[JournalInTime]

I personally prefer to just stand upright anyway and generate any forward lean from the ankles

Same here. I start with an upright posture (like back against a wall) and then use my feet to incline myself toward my partner. If my partner steps away, I'm just kind of leaning forward a bit from the ankles, not falling over.

 

[pianistamediano]

Which is extremely discouraging where I live, where followers vastly outnumber leaders and grumble about sitting, yet won't dance with newer leaders. It sends the message "You're so bad that even a desperate follower won't dance with you!"

I'm a big supporter of there is no tango without mutual desire to dance, but honestly it's a displeasure of their own making. Hilarious, even. If they want more leaders, sitting on one's arse and doing nothing is one way to achieve that goal. Rejection and disregard cut deepest of all in a social scene, and it just makes those followers hypocrites [?].

Granted, the high attrition rate makes dancers — leaders and followers both — wary of investing too much into dancers who are pretty likely to quit tango in their first few years, but there's still something to be said for giving the occasional tanda that, while it may not be as pleasant as one is used to, still helps grow the community.

The dancers that make up the cream of the crop need not care at all because they generally get all the dances they want, but those few who do and aren't teachers are to be applauded.