What is tango doing wrong: #3 - men & women

[Tangogal]

The most optimal course of action for many followers would be to cultivate beginner leaders and influence their journey in such a way that they become highly compatible leaders who regularly give them enjoyable tandas, but that's too long-term and uncertain apparently.

Too painful. My body can’t handle beginners. In fact, my body can only handle a certain number of tandas in a night and if I spend them on beginners I’ll end up refusing other dances I might have enjoyed.

I’m in a quality over quantity phase and leave milongas before the end.

 

[itwillhappen]

The most optimal course of action for many followers would be to cultivate beginner leaders and influence their journey in such a way that they become highly compatible leaders who regularly give them enjoyable tandas, but that's too long-term and uncertain apparently.

The unfavorable ratio of numbers and the high drop-out rate can also yield a high level of personal "wear and tear".
I don't think there is a general path to go, it's based heavily on ones own circumstances, and a bit of luck is also involved.

 

[pianistamediano]

Too painful. My body can’t handle beginners. In fact, my body can only handle a certain number of tandas in a night and if I spend them on beginners I’ll end up refusing other dances I might have enjoyed.

That's fair! It's your body to do with as you wish.

 

[TTanguero]

The most optimal course of action for many followers would be to cultivate beginner leaders and influence their journey in such a way that they become highly compatible leaders who regularly give them enjoyable tandas

I was fortunate enough to benefit from this. Doubly fortunate in that all remain followers I love to dance with, so although I would feel I owe them dances now, that is a pleasure rather than an obligation.

I think it helps that I took privates before group classes, and a musical walk and comfortable embrace were the top priorities.

 

[Rabbit]

The most optimal course of action for many followers would be to cultivate beginner leaders and influence their journey in such a way that they become highly compatible leaders who regularly give them enjoyable tandas, but that's too long-term and uncertain apparently.

Personally I don't think it is so easy to influence the development path of dancers, people have strong natural tendencies and a lot of other external influences. Everyone I enjoy dancing with was already enjoyable to dance with when I started dancing with them, even if they were beginners at the time.

 

[opendoor]

The most optimal course of action for many followers would be to cultivate beginner leaders and influence their journey in such a way that they become highly compatible leaders who regularly give them enjoyable tandas, but that's too long-term and uncertain apparently....

This is exactly what I experienced first hand. As a complete beginner, a handful of fine, experienced tangueras immediately took me under their wings. They were my first teachers, because I couldn't afford group classes at that time. I was learning by doing (socially dancing) at the milongas. This is how I built a network that has lasted to this day. And I always paid them back for their investment. These fabulous dancers are slowly saying goodbye, as they were usually a few years older than me.
( However, I also had an arrogant, cliquish period in which I only danced with the youngest and prettiest tango gazelles. But I eventually found my way back to the reality of real human relations and contacts. )

 

[itwillhappen]

My girlfriend is - together with another woman - starting to organize (quite successfully) private workshops, and also learning how to lead in tango.
She recently mentioned that she needs a better "women's network". I disagreed with her, pointing out that, in my opinion, tango (in Northern Europe) has long been organized predominantly by women, and that's ok as they are clearly more interested in dance in general.
And I pointed out to her that she's build the workshop group in a gender-balanced way so far. She has more than enough women anyway, so she'll need a better men's network very soon. (And no, I'm personally - like many men - less interested in tango networking than most women.)

 

[opendoor]

...personally - like many men - less interested in tango networking..

You network here and elsewhere. This puts you well beyond the male prime meridian.

 

[itwillhappen]

You network here and elsewhere. This puts you well beyond the male prime meridian.

That's probably true.

But it wouldn't be particularly wise for our romantic relationship if I were to compete with her on any level, including networking.
This also applies to leading in tango, by the way. Like many other women, she learns it, and of course she will also lead at milongas (something she has long denied), and perhaps she will lead me from time to time. But if she shows signs of striving to be a better leader than me, then things might get difficult. At least relationship research (John Gottman et al.) suggests that it has a negative impact on relationships when men clearly lose against their "ladies" in a relevant competitive area (intellect, career, assets ... tango).

 

[fiesta0618]

But if she shows signs of striving to be a better leader than me, then things might get difficult. At least relationship research (John Gottman et al.) suggests that it has a negative impact on relationships when men clearly lose against their "ladies" in a relevant competitive area (intellect, career, assets ... tango).

I don't understand this. Why is it a bad thing for one's significant other to be really good at something?

My wife has much more talent for dance artistry than I do. I have worked very hard, through study and individual practice, to acquire performative skills on par with hers. After several years, she thinks that I have become better at it than she is. She applauds this.

On the other hand, I have been a musician my entire life. I have talent and skill for it, both vocal and instrumental. My wife started studying music (solfeggio) several years ago as a way to catch up to me. She is now unequivocally a better singer. I applaud this.

Why would we ever be upset about these achievements?

ETA: in case these are too nebulous. My wife earned a PhD, which of course took several years. In that time, I began my career. So I had a big head start, and have been the primary earner for most of our time together.

A year and a half ago, she earned a promotion to a director level position and got a raise so that she's earning a good bit more than me. I was ecstatic--that's so good for the family finances! And it's so rewarding to see all of her years of Herculean effort pay tangible dividends. That seems a really strange thing to be upset about, too.

Folks might point out that means she doesn't need me anymore. I would hasten to agree! And at the same time I would scoff. It means a lot more that she wants to be with me, not that she needs to in order to survive or be comfortable.

And I see dance roles the same way. Just because someone becomes more proficient than me at the role I focus on doesn't mean that they're going to stop wanting to dance with me.

 

[tangoing]

That's probably true.

But it wouldn't be particularly wise for our romantic relationship if I were to compete with her on any level, including networking.
This also applies to leading in tango, by the way. Like many other women, she learns it, and of course she will also lead at milongas (something she has long denied), and perhaps she will lead me from time to time. But if she shows signs of striving to be a better leader than me, then things might get difficult. At least relationship research (John Gottman et al.) suggests that it has a negative impact on relationships when men clearly lose against their "ladies" in a relevant competitive area (intellect, career, assets ... tango).

I think its only when you "lose" substantially, like if she got way better than you at leading. Much like if you two earned similar income and then she got a new job that paid 10x.
Either way, just keep practicing and being better than her

 

[ArbeeNYC]

You network here and elsewhere. This puts you well beyond the male prime meridian.

Does this count as networking?

 

[Rabbit]

I don't understand this. Why is it a bad thing for one's significant other to be really good at something?

Well in the case of role swapping in tango, it's presumably annoying to lose 2 followers from the available pool whenever someone swaps to leading.

 

[fiesta0618]

Well in the case of role swapping in tango, it's presumably annoying to lose 2 followers from the available pool whenever someone swaps to leading.

By that token, we should have a grudge against every skilled leader that followers are drawn to. I still don't understand.

 

[itwillhappen]

I don't understand this. Why is it a bad thing for one's significant other to be really good at something?

My wife...

Having an opinion about how things should be or could be or how they are is one thing, scientific research is another. Partner selection and couple dynamics have become a socially "vital" topic, drawing on long-term studies, dating portal data analyses, and observations under laboratory conditions (sic!). One should also consider the time of the research and the age cohorts.

I was referring to a review book (What Makes Love Last, 2012) by John Gottman (John Gottman - Wikipedia) about his work in the field.

So a personal judgment like "bad thing" is out of place here. And perhaps I should emphasize "relevant competitive area." That is, whether something is part of a male identity and whether one tends to be competitive. Everyone can decide for themselves whether this is or was the case with tango, so whether they have experienced severe stress in tango classes or at milogas.

Personally, I'm currently in a relationship with a woman who is very successful in a male-dominated business, as a department leader and board member. And she knows from experience the problems this caused in her personal life also. It's just not competive, as I'm already in early retirement.