What is tango doing wrong: #3 - men & women

[Bailango]

Couples therapists are familiar with the term "emotional infidelity", meaning infidelity in thoughts or manifested in chats.

I get the concept of “emotional infidelity”. However what do you mean by chats? To me it means being attracted to someone in particular without indulging in any physical acts of intimacy. Call it an emotional relationship. It has almost all hallmarks of a relationship and emotional investment minus the physical intimacy.

Thus, even an intimately danced tanda could be classified as infidelity.

How do you define what would be an intimately danced tanda.

Forget dancing. In normal life, is finding someone attracting infidelity? To me it is not unless you feel attracted. There is a big difference between finding someone attracted and feeling the attraction.

My partner and I now have an explicit agreement that we will tolerate this "infidelity for 12 minutes" because we're not missing anything, and under the condition that everyone leaves the emotional connection shortly after the tanda.

And what would be not leaving the emotional connection after the tanda?

I am getting a sense that you are perhaps overstretching it by calling intimate dancing as an act of emotional fidelity. I am single and can’t remember emotional connection surviving a tanda or a dance. Or put it other way you can have an intimate dance experience with someone whom you are not attracted to at emotional and physical level.

Then you have grey areas in between.

1. Where you are attracted at physical level, have an intimate dance but there you leave it at that and are genuinely not interested in anything with that person.

2. You are attracted at emotional level due to intimate dance but are not interested in anything more.

3. You are attracted at both emotional level and physical level but not interested in anything to do with them other than dancing.

Then you could have situations where one of above may be mutual but you just aren’t interested in anything more with that person.

More complicated:

A. the other person is interested or desires more. You don’t.
B. the other person is interested but stays away from either out of compulsion or sense of morality.
C. Mutual interest but you stay out of doing anything out of sense of morality (or fidelity).
D. You are interested in more but the other person rejects.

The last is beyond emotional infidelity. What do we call it unrequited infidelity?

Human nature is complex. Then are those cases we call being “madly in love”, where you simply aren’t attracted to anyone else because you are so much into your partner. Beyond that is where you trust your partner so much that you just can’t believe they connect at emotional level with anyone else. Or if you they do, you really believe there is nothing romantic about it.

 

[Bailango]

My interest in competing in most of the things I do has nothing at all to do with a desire to be better than people. When I am trying to briefly summarize my character to others, one of the things I say frequently is, "I absolutely love competing, but I don't care at all about winning."

This!

People can have an intrinsic drive to be better or perfect, sans any need for external validation.

I would add the desire to be better than others is okay as long as you are not at all bothered that someone else is better than you.

So, yeah, I suppose that means you're right. I definitely wouldn't want that kind of competition in any relationship. I fully agree with you it would be damaging.

There is a word for that jealousy. Jealousy is a huge problem in any relationship. If your partner becoming better at anything including what you do, gives you a sense of joy, that’s opposite of jealousy. Two driven people can have a healthy competition without thinking one is losing or genuinely respecting other winning without feeling bad. They can happen with someone who you are not in relationship with. But two ultra driven people can be in a relationship without a hint of negative reaction/feeling when other does better.

Now that I think about it competition can be a zero sum game in terms of outcomes. The question is whether outcome matters to you or your partner.

And this also clarifies why I have been shocked by your earlier assertions.

May be it more of language issue of expression or not enough nuanced thinking ?

Because I consider that approach to competition toxic and damaging even to the individual who thinks that way,

That’s jealousy. There is a name for it. Jealousy and insecurity can be root cause of many relationship failures. Others around might see red flags before you do. Or one can be in denial about a partner’s jealousy/insecurity issue. Or you could think if you can accommodate them to a certain extent the relationship can thrive.

 

[itwillhappen]

I get the concept of “emotional infidelity”. However what do you mean by chats? To me it means being attracted to someone in particular without indulging in any physical acts of intimacy. Call it an emotional relationship. It has almost all hallmarks of a relationship and emotional investment minus the physical intimacy.

We live in times where some people already maintain an emotional relationship with an AI chatbot.
Ultimately, even in (messenger or phone) chats, it's a question of the relationship between the emotional investment in one's partner and that in third parties. What topics are being discussed, and do you want to keep them secret from your partner?
Some people cuddle their dog for minutes upon coming home and casually greet their partner; this also raises questions about the state of a relationship.

How do you define what would be an intimately danced tanda.

A tanda like the one you would dance with your romantic partner.

Forget dancing. In normal life, is finding someone attracting infidelity? To me it is not unless you feel attracted. There is a big difference between finding someone attracted and feeling the attraction.

Everyone finds others attractive and is occasionally attracted to them as a result. I would draw the line to infidelity where you intensely imagine filling gaps in your current relationship with the other person, being able to communicate more deeply, having a better time together.

And what would be not leaving the emotional connection after the tanda?

I am getting a sense that you are perhaps overstretching it by calling intimate dancing as an act of emotional fidelity. I am single and can’t remember emotional connection surviving a tanda or a dance. Or put it other way you can have an intimate dance experience with someone whom you are not attracted to at emotional and physical level.

Then you have grey areas in between.

I was amazed to hear from my girlfriend how many male dancers seek contact via messenger afterwards. They write about how great the tanda was with a partner and how they'd like to do it again.

Some even become "sticky" by the third tanda at the latest. So, in my opinion, you should at maximum dance two tandas in a row with another person, or dance one and talk for one more. If, in a particular case, more "care" is needed, if a more in-depth chat takes place, you can hopefully explain that to your romantic partner.

In the beginning I had a discussion with my girlfriend because she felt she had to inform another dancer about that I was unexpectedly coming with her to a milonga. I lacked understanding, and it didn't get any better when I heard that the poor guy had just been dumped by his girlfriend.

We now communicate clearly and consistently, so this kind of thing doesn't happen anymore.
BTW, we also wouldn't enter a milonga separately in BsAs either, so we simply ignore any possible psychological issues and power struggles of "milongueros".

 

[opendoor]

..was amazed to hear from my girlfriend how many male dancers seek contact via messenger afterwards. They write about how great the tanda was..

That sounds kind of wishy-washy. If I'm looking for romantic contact, I wouldn't write about how great the tanda was..

 

[Bailango]

We live in times where some people already maintain an emotional relationship with an AI chatbot.

Is relationship with AI chat bot knowing it is not a person, not an infidelity? Which is different when you are in an emotional relationship with a person minus physical intimacy.

Ultimately, even in (messenger or phone) chats, it's a question of the relationship between the emotional investment in one's partner and that in third parties.

Yes those emotional relationships have existed. Historically there is a record of relationship through exchange of letters between people not married or in Romantic relationship.

What topics are being discussed, and do you want to keep them secret from your partner?

If there is an emotional dependence and emotional longing which then gets satisfied when you are with the other person whether in real or virtually (phone, messages, letters, etc); then that is certainly an emotional relationship.

Some people cuddle their dog for minutes upon coming home and casually greet their partner; this also raises questions about the state of a relationship.

LOL you are taking this to whole new level. Now you will object to affection for offsprings (children) before showing it to the partner.

A tanda like the one you would dance with your romantic partner.

And no what way tanda you dance with romantic partner is different. If romantic partner is not as skilled, then tanda could be inferior!!

Everyone finds others attractive and is occasionally attracted to them as a result. I would draw the line to infidelity where you intensely imagine filling gaps in your current relationship with the other person, being able to communicate more deeply, having a better time together.

Yes. That’s black and white. You have essentially checked out of the relationship. Either temporary or permanently in the emotional sense.

I was amazed to hear from my girlfriend how many male dancers seek contact via messenger afterwards. They write about how great the tanda was with a partner and how they'd like to do it again.

I thought that was common. People do that on text messages, Facebook messages, etc.

I am not sure what seeking contact means. Instead of messages is it any different than if they said it in person. I know a couple. I know both the man and the woman. I don’t know if they are married, but they are certainly a couple. I think may be they are married. I met her before I met him. She had asked me for a dance. Was dancing for one year but better than those dancing for 5 years. At another milonga she introduced me to her partner/husband. We (husband and I) often will talk for two or three tandas. They will dance half the tandas with each other.

But she likes dancing with me and will tell me that after a tanda. How is that different than messaging. I don’t have her contact number. I hardly have anyone’s contact numbers in the tango scene - men or women. Nor am I on social media. So no one can message me.

From what I know is that, people routinely message each other how great dancing with the other was last night. No one really considers a big deal if that is all there is to message. Men are more likely to be the initiators.

Some even become "sticky" by the third tanda at the latest.

What third tanda and what “sticky”

So, in my opinion, you should at maximum dance two tandas in a row with another person, or dance one and talk for one more.

Don’t get what logic you are driving at.

If, in a particular case, more "care" is needed, if a more in-depth chat takes place, you can hopefully explain that to your romantic partner.

What in-depth chat? About tango or music? Whenever people have in-depth chats, they will often mention it to their partners as some interesting conversation they had.

In the beginning I had a discussion with my girlfriend because she felt she had to inform another dancer about that I was unexpectedly coming with her to a milonga.

Was this before you were in relationship or after

I lacked understanding, and it didn't get any better when I heard that the poor guy had just been dumped by his girlfriend.

Lacked understanding of when of the what’

We now communicate clearly and consistently, so this kind of thing doesn't happen anymore.

You mean she doesn’t inform others or you are okay

BTW, we also wouldn't enter a milonga separately in BsAs either, so we simply ignore any possible psychological issues and power struggles of "milongueros".

I am lost what the former has to do with the latter in this hypothetical.

 

[Paja]

I have oposite experience then itwillhappen maybe. I have been visiting milongas with my wife, she is my AT partner since beginning. And if we are not known in communitity of dancers on this particular milonga, she had no cabeceo from locals. Latino parties are different, everybody dance with everyone. She si asked for Salsa by young guys. And we had a funny story from last december. There was one handsom turkey guy, living in germany, now traveling and accidentally visited party with fiend. She was pleased and had some conversation and even she showed him that I am her husband, he invited her to hotel room. Of course she said sorry and we laughed in car later, when she told me this story. In our age (both over 50) and almost 30 years maried, we took it as compliment for my wife, to be attactive for someone generation younger. In fact, I was proud, not jealous. This is my feature, for someone maybe weakness, I am not jealous at all.

 

[Paja]

Some even become "sticky" by the third tanda at the latest. So, in my opinion, you should at maximum dance two tandas in a row with another person, or dance one and talk for one more.

I am amazed that your partner allows to dance third tandas in row with someone else then you. It is common rule - two tandas in row = you interested me (not only as dancer), three tandas in row = I want more then dance. There are stories, that after third tanda in row these guys invited girl to go for "cafe" and it was of course not a cafe.

 

[opendoor]

..There are stories, that after third tanda in row these guys invited girl to go for "cafe" and it was ..

I usually invited a girl right before the first tanda! I never mixed up my interests.

 

[Paja]

Opendoor, this "cafe" is something like Roxette song Sleeping in my car refrain And I never mixed up this to Tango as well as you.

 

[Bailango]

three tandas in row = I want more then dance. There are stories, that after third tanda in row these guys invited girl to go for "cafe" and it was of course not a cafe.

Where is this unspoken rule?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Where is this unspoken rule?

Part of the lore and legend of tango.

 

[itwillhappen]

I have oposite experience then itwillhappen maybe. I have been visiting milongas with my wife, she is my AT partner since beginning. And if we are not known in communitity of dancers on this particular milonga, she had no cabeceo from locals.

In the beginning, we were unsure how it would affect people if we came out as a couple at milongas. My girlfriend got much dances on her own, and I didn't want to be a hindrance.

But it works great. We can even dance really provocatively, me with my hands in my pockets, her with her hands in the air, a goodbye kiss on the dance floor.

The minor boys - big shots and busybodies - aren't happy, but they still dance with her to mark their territory. Plus, she can get rid of annoying chatterers much more easily afterward.

And the major boys - key players, DJs, and organizers - are much more open to her if she'll obviously come with a partner to events.

 

[Bailango]

Part of the lore and legend of tango.

I can’t remember dancing two tandas in a row. I have seen many people who have zero romantic relationship dance three tandas in a row. Sometimes it a tango partner, sometimes it is a paid instructor, sometimes they just like to dance with each other.

I never got the memo of three tanda rule!

 

[Bailango]

In the beginning, we were unsure how it would affect people if we came out as a couple at milongas. My girlfriend got much dances on her own, and I didn't want to be a hindrance.

Why should that be even a concern. If people knew both of you before it should not make a difference. If they didn’t and they see you dancing with others, they would know you are available to dance. May be you are overthinking this.

We can even dance really provocatively, me with my hands in my pockets, her with her hands in the air, a goodbye kiss on the dance floor.

Again if you are a couple it is no big deal you dance anyway you want. Two adults whether they are in relationship or not have full freedom to dance anyway you want. Btw the way you describe it I don’t see how that is provocative dancing

The minor boys - big shots and busybodies - aren't happy,

Aren’t happy that she is your gf or you are her bf?

And the major boys - key players, DJs, and organizers - are much more open to her if she'll obviously come with a partner to events.

Not at all sure what being open and marketing territory means.

 

[itwillhappen]

Again if you are a couple it is no big deal you dance anyway you want. Two adults whether they are in relationship or not have full freedom to dance anyway you want. Btw the way you describe it I don’t see how that is provocative dancing

Personally, I don't like to see it when dancers kiss on the floor. But I don't have to see myself.

Aren’t happy that she is your gf or you are her bf?

Not at all sure what being open and marketing territory means.

I sometimes notice an inner circle of long-time dancers who don't consider me part of their peer group, so they don't see me and walk past me to greet my gf. @opendoor will know what I'm talking about. The men are often quite dominant in their overall behavior.
And now, as a professional leader and manager, she's starting to organize her own workshop group and our private milongas. This is going to be interesting.

By "open," I mean that organizers immediately approach her when she enters the room, chat with her, dance e.g. the last tanda, and assure her a "green card" for future events.