What is Tango Nuevo?

[opendoor]

.. If a couple is walking parallel feet face on, I would call every step open, .. But if the man is outside left, every back step by the woman with her right foot creates an open position, while every back step with her left creates a crossed position....

hi together,
thats exactly what the Mauricio Castro people teach. I like to work with them from time to time. I think one should be able to switch the style according to the music played actually. Good night then!

 

[bastet]

Thank you. This was helpful in that I was also confused about the difference between the very common "cross feet/ parallel feet" concept vs this "cross/open" thing you are all discussing.

I understand what you are meaning with the giro. Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?

(Obviously I've never had an instructor teach the possibilities using these terms, although I'm pretty sure I've been taught the various possibilities)

I think tangonuevo covered it...walking in parallel in front of each other would be open steps, walking in outside partner in certain steps makes them crossed to each other...see you can include the idea everywhere! It's just another way of thinking about it. You certianly won't end up with as many possibilities in a milonguero embrace, because of the constraints of the embrace, but you can still get people used to the concepts themselves.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization.

I agree whole heartedly.
Vocabulary can either facilitate or hinder learning. The words used to teach should be as clear as possible, if your purpose is to communicate and inform.

I'll say again that the possibilities in an apilado embrace are not nearly as limited as some of you seem to think they are.

 

[tangonuevo]

...I'll say again that the possibilities in an apilado embrace are not nearly as limited as some of you seem to think they are.

Steve - please don't take this the wrong way because I am a huge student of close embrace, dancing as much and having taken perhaps more privates in that style (that word) than any other. And remember, I was the one suspected of being an acolyte of a nameless milonguero instructor. But here goes anyway: try doing a back sacada of your follows left foot from right outside partner with your left without breaking your close embrace frame. Not easy. In open embrace, not hard. Now you may not want to do such a thing, but that is a different issue altogether.

 

[tangonuevo]

...Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization...

At first I simply used the concepts merely in analyzing and thinking about the dance. Over time, that mode of thinking became fairly well integrated and I learned to simply dance the thoughts, but with MANY more possibilities always available to me, without any memorization or even thinking of step patterns, but just being very aware of my and my partner's body positions.

Today a have (essentially) no patterns whatsoever. I just dance. But it was largely through these kinds of thought processes that I can now do this.

 

[Steve Pastor]

try doing a back sacada of your follows left foot from right outside partner with your left without breaking your close embrace frame. Not easy. In open embrace, not hard. Now you may not want to do such a thing, but that is a different issue altogether.

I have no problem with this statement and just want to make the point that a/m/ce is not near as limited as most people seem to think.

Does it take a certain skill at disassociating your torso/hips/legs, while concentrating on maintining "the embrace? Of course it does.
(Most "close embrace frames" (an oxymoron, I'd argue, in apilado the "frame" becomes internal) are in fact assymetric and you end up with movement one way being easier than the other way. And, the more upright the partners are (on their own axis) the more restricted are the movements. And frankly, the way most "close embrace" is taught leads you there.)

But, the same methodology that inspired the labeling of certain movements, when writ large and energetic, to be labeled "nuevo" by the public, can also be used to understand a/m/ce.

Can you dance "nuevo milongureo"? And what would that be?

I'm pleased that you don't think patterns, etc; but would point out that how someone teaches is probably more important than the "nuevo" brand.
We could share observations about you unnamed instructor and others, but we don't usually go there.

 

[tangonuevo]

...Can you dance "nuevo milongureo"? And what would that be?

Interesting question. I think yes. But the answer comes down to understanding what you mean by nuevo, and what you mean by milonguero. Is "milonguero" necessarily danced small in a crowded space? Or does it mean dancing entirely on body? Does it mean it looks like an elderly porteno? Does it admit big movements? Is a deep volcada milonguero? Is an on-body linear boleo with a former ballerina resulting in the free leg describing a very large arc milonguero? Or nuevo? Or noneoftheabove? I don't know that I really want to go there with the labeling issue.

...how someone teaches is probably more important than the "nuevo" brand.

I think that the "nuevo brand", despite my username, is nearly irrelevant. A lot of what I lead with my regular partner, although 100% lead follow, I don't lead with most other women. This is because many have difficulty with requisite athleticism, understanding energy based leads, understanding suspension, ability to fully maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc. I personally consider most of the stuff requiring such followers technique as nuevo. But that is just personal categorization and nothing about brand. Probably wrong, but I don't know that I really care!

 

[Steve Pastor]

This is because many have difficulty with requisite athleticism, understanding energy based leads, understanding suspension, ability to fully maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc. I personally consider most of the stuff requiring such followers technique as nuevo. But that is just personal categorization and nothing about brand. Probably wrong, but I don't know that I really care!

It just so happens that I don't dance a/c/me (pretty soon I will be using ACME!) with most women for the same reason. I dont think have an understanding of energy based leads, suspension, and are not fully able to maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc.
Some of this is the same, some is different in the two "styles". The axis in apilado is shared, as an example.
Good dancers have the qualities you cite, and also almost as importantly, I would say, is the ability to "not freak out" and "fall apart" when asked to step somewhere they haven't learned by rote.
If I had more partners in West Coast Swing, as another example, who presented be with a clear axis, I could lead a lot more different things.
I've never had a "steady" AT partner, but do have women I've danced with through the years. So, if I can't lead something, or my current partner doesn't seem to be picking up the lead to do, for example, a back step rather than a forward step in a molinete, I just let it go.
Have you danced much with the better "nuevo" dancers where you dance? How does it go with them?

 

[larrynla]

under- and over-turned ochos

OK, thanks for the clarification about the difference between
parallel/crossed feet and open/crossed relationship. Both concepts
have long been familiar to me, and I've come across them in other
dances. The terminology is a bit confusing, however. Why not
open/closed instead of open/crossed? The last pair of words are
clearly opposites.

What are the Spanish words the teachers use for these ideas? Are they
clearer (to Spanish speakers)?
________________________________ ocho-family figures
Let me expand on a different aspect of nuevo tango - something I
learned in a class by (I think) "Chicho" Frumboli the year after Salas
was here in L.A. This is under-turned and over-turned ochos.

Up to then, despite having maybe three dozen teachers face-to-face
(though most just for a few hours) and seen lots of videos, ochos just
meant two 180-degree turns after another that returned the dancer to
(usually her) starting position. Frumboli (or Salas?) explained that
there is a whole family of figures with pivots in them.

________________________________ under-turned ochos
Suppose instead of two 180-degree turns the man leads two 90-degree
turns. They produce a zig-zag figure that travels (usually) along the
line of dance. He called these under-turned ochos. So the man,
instead of standing in the same spot to lead the ocho, must travel with
the woman. If he leads her to step backward he has to step forward.
They mirror each other.

Or if he leads her to step forward, doing under-turned forward ochos,
he has to step backward. So he should first lead the two of them into
a half-turn to remain moving along the line of dance.

________________________________ over-turned ochos
Leading ochos where the woman does greater than 180-degree pivots
creates over-turned ochos. If her pivot is 270 degrees (a 3/4 turn) or
360 degrees (a full turn) the leader may only want her to do a single
pivoting step, not two the way one does the normal ocho. But such is
possible, just not easy. And the man is going to have to do some
movement from his starting spot as with zig-zags.

________________________________ sideways ochos
If the man leads his partner to pivot and step across behind (or in
front) of her supporting foot he can lead ochos to the left and right
instead of along (or opposite) the line of dance.

________________________________ grapevines/braids/cadenas
If you take the half a forward ocho and half a backward ocho and stick
them together (along with, perhaps, other individual steps), what do
you get?

Several possibilities. Among them is the cadena, which I first
encounted in a modern dance class under the name of the braid, and in a
jazz dance class as a grapevine. It might be of this pattern: side, to
the side crossing behind, side, to the side crossing in front, and
repeat. The man typically mirrors his partner. When she steps side
crossing behind he steps side crossing in front. Or he can duplicate
her step, so both are crossing behind at the same time.

Another possibility: a man can lead the cadena so the woman makes a box
or hexagon or octagon around the man while he stands in the same spot,
turning to remain facing her. This is the molinete (wheel), where he
is the hub and she the rim.

________________________________ colgadas
Further development of these ideas leads to the colgada, where the two
partners lean away from each other and the woman spins on one foot
while the man steps from side to side on each side of her supporting
foot. With her free foot she can do several kinds of adornos, most
often just a long kick back that leaves her free leg extended until he
stops the spin, maybe after just a half-turn or maybe after several
complete turns.

________________________________ Nuevo? Or not?
I don't know if all these possibilities can really be included under
the umbrella of "nuevo" tango. I seem to recall seeing a few of these
combinations before Naveira and Salas began widely teaching after "The
Tango Lesson" made them well known. But it was a revelation to me that
the combinations were all related.

And significant historically perhaps that it was teachers identified by
others (but not by themselves) as nuevo tango teachers who taught these
classes.

Larry de Los Angeles

 

[Angel HI]

OK, thanks for the clarification about the difference between parallel/crossed feet and open/crossed relationship. Why not open/closed instead of open/crossed?

________________________________ colgadas
Further development of these ideas leads to the colgada, where the two
partners lean away from each other and the woman spins on one foot
while the man steps from side to side on each side of her supporting
foot. With her free foot she can do several kinds of adornos, most
often just a long kick back that leaves her free leg extended until he
stops the spin, maybe after just a half-turn or maybe after several
complete turns.

________________________________ Nuevo? Or not?
I don't know if all these possibilities can really be included under
the umbrella of "nuevo" tango.

A few points here, Larry. I've just been reading for awhile, and being quiet, but your questions urged me to post. Firstly, it was Fabian and Gustavo who basically changed the terminology to open and crossed...open simply meaning side. We have taught together often, and, for ex., when describing the molinete, he will say, "back, open, front, open...". He never uses the term crossed in this case (or any turning movement) because he says that it leaves to question whether one means a front cross or a back cross.

Secondly, your descriptions of the ocho possibilities is quite good. Consider this in support of your post. We always teach that, in tango, ocho simply means swivel. The degree of swivel is whatever it intends to be. Draw an asterisk on the floor. If you were standing afront of the horizontal line, your descriptions of forward/under/overturned, back/over/underturned, and side ochos can be realized quite easily.

Thirdly, however, your description of colgada is limiting. Though it is developed from the ocho, as you posted, your description is only one type of colgada (mostly found in nuevo), rather than a definition of colgada as presented. Since you mentioned Fabian, you might know that he enjoys teaching the colgada from a simple arrepentida ending in salida in what is most commonly referred to as open embrace (w/o all of the side stepping and leg flying that you described which has nothing to do with colgada, really).

Lastly, all of the possiblities can be included in nuevo, but none of them need be included in, or under the umbrella of, nuevo.

 

[chrisjj]

I do believe that Salas says they did in fact invent the back boleo

Here's Fabian Salas about to give another interview:
tinyurl. com/y99m79y