What keeps judges honest and ethical?

[DanceMentor]

What keeps judges honest and ethical?
This is sort of a general question. I just wanted to know if there are rules governing judges that allow for things like:
1. Ability to report a concern about a judges behavior without fear or retribution.
2. Have there been any examples of judges receiving infractions or suspensions for improper behavior? How does this system work?
3. Are there any rules in place to help prevent conflicts of interest where maybe the judge is supposed to remove themself in certain situations such as a family member or close friend is competing.
4. Is there any sort of peer review that takes place?
5. Are there any tests to make sure the judge is staying current modern dance technique?
6. Is it clearly documented under what circumstances a judge is allowed to accept money from competitors? Should there be some requirements for reporting this type of income?

It seems to me that if there were more assurances that some of the above takes place, people would feel better. And also, it seems prudent that judges should have some standards that they must meet on a continuing basis, with some periodic reviews, as well as a system for reporting suspicious behavior anonymously.

Some of this may already be in existence, but I was hoping others might be able to shed more light on this.

 

[tangotime]

Yes -- we do have a " code " of ethics . All major soc. have rules by which we must abide, which, of course , carry thru into our every day activities .

Yes , one can be censured for improper behaviour at any time and at ANY occasion . ( There are a few very well known incidents, that i do not wish to put in print )

And yes, there are " exemption " rules in place .

As far as peer review is concerned , the closest thing to that, would be the chairman of judges ability( if he so desired ) to question marks that were totally out of line with the rest of the panel

 

[DanceMentor]

Yes -- we do have a " code " of ethics . All major soc. have rules by which we must abide, which, of course , carry thru into our every day activities .

Yes , one can be censured for improper behaviour at any time and at ANY occasion . ( There are a few very well known incidents, that i do not wish to put in print )

And yes, there are " exemption " rules in place .

As far as peer review is concerned , the closest thing to that, would be the chairman of judges ability( if he so desired ) to question marks that were totally out of line with the rest of the panel

Thanks for your reply. I hope I wasn't too harsh in the way I posed the questions. I'm always hearing people talk about problems the percieve exist, and I wanted to start this post to shed some light into this topic.

 

[reb]

About question #5 - maybe it should be about . . . how can/do judges stay true to the dance (thinking about how hard it must be to resist the impulse to be attracted to speed/power/gimmicks/trends vs musicality, etc.).

 

[reb]

What keeps judges honest and ethical?

Maybe the same things that keep us ethical?!

Thanks for your reply. I hope I wasn't too harsh in the way I posed the questions. I'm always hearing people talk about problems the percieve exist, and I wanted to start this post to shed some light into this topic.

People want/need to know how situations are handled. New dance competitors experience these questions themselves or are made aware via their peers.

I do feel for those who get broadbrushed - often motives (bad motives) are assumed, stated, repeated, and then are almost impossible to counter - the person/group has been effectively tried and convicted. But this comes with the territory and a bad apple can spoil the whole barrel.

Ignorance breeds rumor, suspicion, and distrust.

Honest discussion is important, otherwise the rumor mill wins.

 

[tangotime]

Harsh ? -- not in the least. I genuinely thought , that most people were aware of the answers , to the q. posed .

 

[fascination]

Maybe the same things that keep us ethical?!

this was my thought as well


I also love the statement that bob powers made in dancebeat about a year and a half ago that said something like; " if it was rigged when you lost, then it could be rigged when you won..in short, shut up and work harder"...no one who has competed for any period of time hasn't wondered at some of their marks...IMO, percieved unfairness is hard to take if you don't/can't compete often...but evens out in the wash if you DO compete often...I have heard of some cases (which I also won't mention) where certain judges have been nicked for certain very abherrent marks that smacked of loyalties that were difficult to refute...but, IMO... there are certain dancers that I may have to dance MUCH BETTER than in order to beat, due to respect that they/their pros have earned...shrug...I am only in control of my own dancing...as for judges recusing themselves....I don't see much point in it...I have danced against a well known pro whose wife was on the judging panel...and this weekend, HE was on the judging panel, and while that was a bit nerve rattling, I wouldn't see any reason to worry about it....no disrespect to DM, but it seems to me that people don't get overly worked up about this when they are winning...and I say this having taken plenty of disappointments home with me and a fair amount of decent results

 

[DanceMentor]

Those are all good answers. The marks I recieved seemed reasonable. I am in no way complaining. I was more just trying to see if I could get a better feel for the organization and policies, and also find out more about what is done to protect against problems. Surely, even among judges, there is a bad apple occasionally, and it would be reassuring to know that there are ways that situations, when they arise, are handled.

 

[fascination]

gotcha...I can't see you being a sour grapes sort of dude...I meant in general it gets sort of tieresome to hear the whining...I'm a whine in private sorta gal....anyhow, I DO think there is some recourse...there was an episode about a year ago where I am aware that a couple marked first by all judeges but one who marked them fifth or sixth in everything...and the other dancers on the floor had the same uh... affiliation.. as athe judge, and I was told that the judge was going to be... um...looked into by the observer there...nuff said...I think the stuff gets watched...I have to say that it is exceedinly rare that results ever surprise me these days and if so, only in a minor way...they have their won reputations to guard...I find it mostly fair...meh...sometimes there's a head scratcher, but , mostly fair...it is a good question DM and well worth asking...btw...congrats on your atlanta results

 

[DanceMentor]

Thank you fascination. It was the best competition I've had in a long time.

I remember my first comp as a pro. It was Hotlanta in the late 90s and they announced ALL placements in the heats (not sure why). I literally got last place in ALL heats with 3 different students. They would actually say "In 14th place...student and me" for each and every heat. I did not compete again for a few years. Now THAT was sour grapes.

 

[fascination]

oh DM...ouch(that must have been awful)...there are so many valuable lessons that one learns over time competing...whether winning or losing...I am finally able to be grateful for all of them...for learning how to suck it up when it really really hurts or when you think you got robbed or when you know you blew it and earned your crappy placement, or when someone you care about beats you or when someone who isn't very nice beats you, or when you beat someone you care about and you have to watch them struggle...there are so many wonderful lessons to be learned that don't feel wonderful at the time but which grow you as a person, hopefully...(definately in your case I am sure)...and how sweet the accomplishment when you really had to bust it from the bottom of the ladder to get there...must say I am grateful for those little steps forward myself

 

[reb]

It seems to me that if there were more assurances that some of the above takes place, people would feel better.

The rulebook is available at w w w . ndca . org - here's a couple quotes. Others may be able to answer about the member organizations' policies regarding testing/updates for qualification and certification.

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

IV. RULES FOR JUDGES​

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[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]A. JUDGES RESTRICTIONS​

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1. A judge must excuse himself from an adjudicating panel on any occasion when he has a member of his immediate family, or any member of the same household dancing in a particular heat of a competition. "Immediate Family" is defined as first cousin or above.

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5. Judges must be Qualified and Certified in the type and style of the competition they are engaged to adjudicate.​

6. Judges who are also active Professional competitors may judge categories restricted to Amateur, and Pro/Am only. They may not judge Professional Events until they have retired from competitive dancing.

7. Officials (including Judges, Scrutineers, Registrars, Masters of Ceremonies, Music Directors and Organizers) are not allowed to give coaching lessons, on or off the premises, during the entire period of time commencing at 12:00 a.m. on the day of the first competitive session and concluding with the end of the last session. This does not apply to Lectures or Seminars scheduled by the organizer and open to any interested parties.

8. If officials and competitors mutually consent to discuss markings and results after the conclusion of the event, they should do so in a civil, ethical, and professional manner. Any breaches of professional conduct should be immediately reported to the NDCA.

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]B. JUDGES CONDUCT​

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2. Judges are reminded that if they converse with any spectators, contestants or coaches, they may not discuss any competitors performance until after the close of the entire event. Failure to comply could result in disciplinary action.

3. Judges are not to compare notes and must judge independently.
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[delamusica]

Without giving away too many details -

I was once in a situation where I was dancing at a competition and the scrutineer made some very inappropriate comments to me off of the floor throughout the weekend (asking me for my room number at the hotel, making suggestive comments about my costume, making comments about how I walked when I was running numbers and handed him the marks, etc. - I was 16 or 17 at the time and he was definitely old enough to be my grandfather). I spoke immediately to the organizer about it, and it was dealt with quickly and discreetly (I don't think anyone else participating at the comp even heard about it). To my knowledge, the guy hasn't worked as an official at a comp since (but to qualify, I didn't compete all that much, so he may have just gone to another part of the country).


That has been my only experience with bad ethics on the part of competition officials, and it was pretty clearly just one bad seed.

 

[Throwaway Overshare]

I also love the statement that bob powers made in dancebeat about a year and a half ago that said something like; " if it was rigged when you lost, then it could be rigged when you won..in short, shut up and work harder"...no one who has competed for any period of time hasn't wondered at some of their marks...

If they're honest, they wonder about both the bad marks and and the good ones too. I recall actually thanking a judge for a low mark in a particular dance, because I thought she was the only one really paying attention.

 

[hbetx9]

Another issue is that there is a natural bias in any subjective sport. For example if a particular judge coaches some of the competitors in a given competition, then that judge, through honest lessons has told those competitors what he/she is looking for or what he/she thinks is important in a particular dance/style, or equivalently what he/she thinks is the most important technique to display.

Given that the comparison is between people of more or less the same quality level of dancing, those students have an edge in that competition for that judge because as his/her students, we assume they are working towards that same vision. Basically judges judge what they teach and teach what they judge, in so much it would be impossible to remove or distinguish this from favoritism towards their students under the situation where the competitors being compared are close, obviously if someone marks Mirko dead last across the board, then this is suspicious.