What Makes Open American Open?

[suburbaknght]

It's easy to understand what makes standard and Latin open level, as the syllabus is so well-defined all the way through gold. Even if infractions occur - I can't remember the last comp I was at where there wasn't a gold Latin invigilation - there's still an agreed-upon base line. I don't understand where the line is drawn in smooth and rhythm, however. Neither USA Dance nor NDCA have any published restrictions in gold American styles right now, and even collegiate competitions have only the most bare bones restrictions (apart work for no more than eight measures in smooth or four in rhythm, must still be lead and follow). One could say that anything that is not a syllabus figure or variation thereof would qualify, but given the wide range of American syllabi that's vague at best.

Where is the line?

 

[dlliba10]

It's easy to understand what makes standard and Latin open level, as the syllabus is so well-defined all the way through gold. Even if infractions occur - I can't remember the last comp I was at where there wasn't a gold Latin invigilation - there's still an agreed-upon base line. I don't understand where the line is drawn in smooth and rhythm, however. Neither USA Dance nor NDCA have any published restrictions in gold American styles right now, and even collegiate competitions have only the most bare bones restrictions (apart work for no more than eight measures in smooth or four in rhythm, must still be lead and follow). One could say that anything that is not a syllabus figure or variation thereof would qualify, but given the wide range of American syllabi that's vague at best.

Where is the line?

For the love of all that is holy, someone please elucidate! I'm tired of being scared of disqualification in Gold Rhythm and Smooth ...

FWIW, my partners and I follow what SK mentioned in our routines (apart work for no more than eight measures, lead and follow), but it's still a very murky distinction. I've even heard from someone, "Well, Gold IS Open, so you'll need routines that can serve you well in both." Talk about confusing.

 

[suburbaknght]

Actually, Dliba, that's a large part of what got me wondering.

 

[Leon Theou]

The attitude I have been hearing from a number of Gold-level collegiate dancers (apparently passed on from more than a few judges) is that Gold is roughly equivalent to Pre-Champ and Open is Champ. The thing is, with all sorts of American style syllabi floating around, it can become the invigilator's opinion that decides what distinguishes Gold from Open.

 

[smidra86]

Well..... This whole this bothers me as well. I have gold routines for smooth that have been choreograph by a pro and so I trust that she knows her syllabi for the american style and what is acceptable. We have one part in our waltz where we do apart work which makes me semi-worried when we compete and the invigillator is just like must be lead and follow because the part in our waltz doesn't feel like lead and follow even though we are doing the same exact thing until the last part when we get back together.

I think it is important to run it past your coaches if you are choreographing a routine yourself, or have it choreographed by a pro, because then if you do get DQed for something not being in the "syllabus" in American, it will be really difficult for the invigillator to argue with whoever your coach is.

(I would like to see anyone try to argue that my gold routines for smooth aren't gold with Larinda. I would be afraid to see that happen.)

 

[suburbaknght]

Well..... This whole this bothers me as well. I have gold routines for smooth that have been choreograph by a pro and so I trust that she knows her syllabi for the american style and what is acceptable

Actually that's not always true. Often, in fact. I've worked with several coaches who had no idea what the restrictions were (one of the reasons my partner and I do our bronze choreography on our own then bring it to a pro for touch up, as we're both fastidious about checking restrictions). You'll hear rants about this over and over. Someone becomes a coach by being a great dancer and a great teacher, not by obtaining judge's certification.

 

[fascination]

and yet the only time I hear caution about that is in bronze and only occasionally silver

 

[smidra86]

Someone becomes a coach by being a great dancer and a great teacher, not by obtaining judge's certification.

Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure you have to actually be qualified to teach ballroom. I constantly hear about how they have to take an exam and how it is difficult like remembering the count for international tango which goes 1,2... 2,2.... 3,2.... 4,2.... 5,2.... etc.

 

[DanceMentor]

I have always hoped there would be a better sense of levels beyond Silver in American Style. If they can do it in International Latin, there is no reason it can be done in both Smooth and Rhythm. The biggest problem I have with American is the use of groups to define the syllabus rather than elements. For example, why can't a Fallaway and Slip Pivot (or Contra Check) be reserved only for Gold in American Style? Then we might also have some elements that one would expect to see in that event.

 

[Josh]

Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure you have to actually be qualified to teach ballroom. I constantly hear about how they have to take an exam and how it is difficult like remembering the count for international tango which goes 1,2... 2,2.... 3,2.... 4,2.... 5,2.... etc.

Qualification comes in many forms, and taking a professional exam is not the only one, and taking a professional exam in no way guarantees the teacher's ability to actually impart useful information. It may help, but no guarantees.

 

[Josh]

I don't "buy it" that Gold must be leadable.

Agree, and your example in Latin shows that for some styles of dances or figures in particular, they aren't really meant to be lead and followed. Standard is probably the best candidate for pure lead and follow since there's more information that can be transmitted between the two bodies due to extra contact. Latin, Rhythm, and Smooth all will be tougher in this respect I think, for many of the more physically disconnected (like side by side, etc.) figures.

 

[suburbaknght]

Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure you have to actually be qualified to teach ballroom. I constantly hear about how they have to take an exam and how it is difficult like remembering the count for international tango which goes 1,2... 2,2.... 3,2.... 4,2.... 5,2.... etc.

Completely false. The US does not require any type of certification to teach dance. Franchises do, but they do internal certification, meaning their teachers are certified when they see their teachers are certified. There are independent certifying bodies - USISTD, DVIDA, IDTA, and so on - but there are no requirements to use those bodies. I got my Associate (bronze) teaching certification in smooth, rhythm, and most recently hustle through DVIDA, and I'm starting my ISTD Latin training in January, but I do so because it makes me a better teacher to be held to such a standard, not because I'm required to have the certification. I can count on one hand the number of times students have asked me about my qualifications, the government has no legal requirements, and studios audition you anyway regardless of your certifications (you can't fib an audition).

There ARE Gold Syllabus out there to pick from... and the collegiate world (YCN) says they want to use USISTD. However I was part of the creation of some of the steps in that syllabus. And I find it completely un-competitive, and far to closed and standard like for the level that should be be getting couples prepared for the Open Championships! (Doesn't mean I don't snake elements from it!)

I don't "buy it" that Gold must be leadable. Because a Three Threes in Gold Rumba is not lead... it is a memorized series of stationary spins that no one would ever dance with out countless hours in front a mirror practicing. And the argument of lead and follow still doesn't fly about "defining gold smooth" because even within the Gold USISTD syllabus are steps called... dun Dun DUUN... Side By Side Variations!!

late for a lesson... will pick this up later tonight.

Larinda, I was hoping you'd jump in on this and I'm looking forward to your analysis. As far as lead-follow goes, I don't consider lead-follow to mean "the leader initiates every movement the follower makes." I don't do that in a box step. Rather, my understanding is that the leader communicates what he (or she! But presumably he) wants the follower to do and the follower responds. With a more intricate step that initial lead results in a far more expansive movement than the leader could have done, but that's part of dance education. As dancers become familiar with what figures follow those small initial leads they need less and less guidance, thus dancers can lead and follow figures in side-by-side position, even without visual contact, because they were clearly initiated. It goes without saying that these are not social figures as the adaptability of a figure with only an initial lead is slim, but that doesn't mean lead-follow is entirely absent. Am I off base?

 

[smidra86]

smidra, sorry if you didn't want that to be posted and I can remove it if you want

It is perfectly fine.

Invigilations have become really strict in the recent collegiate comps. Last year, it definitely did not feel as strict, and sometimes I feel like invigilators don't catch everyone and then it seems unfair to those who did get called out for doing something. I kind of wish invigilations were slightly more consistent, but we're only human as are invigilators and well, even the most strict ones can miss something.

Also, Larinda, that step in my tango, the one you gave us from one of your pro routines with the leg hook etc. We've never been called out on it not being gold, so obviously it is, but I don't understand how it qualifies itself as a gold step. Even by visual leads it isn't really "leadable."

 

[suburbaknght]

Thanks, Larinda! That was a fantastic write up.

 

[debmc]

This is all excellent information. Some of it may be good for the current thread on dancing with/without a routine. You helped clarify "lead and follow". If I am to understand this correctly, it sounds like someone can participate in lead and follow, even if the step would not be "leadable" in a social setting, is that correct? So the lead and follow that exists within a routine, is more the follower waiting for the leader to initiate the desired movement, even if the follower knows ahead of time that that step/pattern is coming up.