What makes someone a pro?

[IvyAB]

I have a slight problem with amateurs being allowed to teach, even if they're restricted to just earning enough money for lessons, costumes, and competitions. At the first studio I worked at, none of us teachers (who also competed professionally) made enough money to live on, or rather, just barely. To be able to pay for coaching, costumes, and competitions, we got second jobs (which ran us ragged since we were all full-time at the studio), made our own costumes, traveled together in a car for 9+ hours because we couldn't afford to fly, and all squeezed into one hotel room. We also had to go without competing for a couple months when finances were especially low, which didn't help our competitive careers. Yet these amateurs get sponsors for their costumes, scholarships for lessons, and basically do the same thing us pros do, but aren't called professional. I'm in a better situation now, but not by much. I can't afford a dress to wear in pro-am competitions with my students, what am I going to do when I start competing pro again?

I don't know if I had any point when I started this post, but I've lost it now. I'm just frustrated by having no money. I was in a car accident two weeks ago, and lost a lot of teaching time on bed rest. I still need to have a light teaching schedule, because my back is causing me so much pain. Here's another point--amateurs get health insurance from their full-time job, but us pros have to pay for it out of pocket. Okay, I'm done. :roll:

 

[Genesius Redux]

LauraB-

Dedication to the arts is not an easy road, particularly in a country where the arts go largely unsubsidized. I understand your frustration, and I hope that things get better quickly.

Cheers,

Genesius

 

[KevinL]

I'm just frustrated by having no money. I was in a car accident two weeks ago, and lost a lot of teaching time on bed rest. I still need to have a light teaching schedule, because my back is causing me so much pain. Here's another point--amateurs get health insurance from their full-time job, but us pros have to pay for it out of pocket. Okay, I'm done. :roll:

Heal well, and be sure to be ready before you start teaching full time, you'll be better off in the long run if you are fully healed.

Unfortunately we have chosen a career that depends on our bodies being strong and fit in order to make a living. If you ever become not-strong and/or not-fit you will not be able to make a living as a teacher. That is one of the disadvantages of this career path. Fear of not having money/ insurance is one of the reasons I'm not doing this full-time yet...

Kevin

 

[Porfirio Landeros]

Sorry, LauraB.

I hope your recovery goes well. The money situation of a lot of pro's starting out seems to support the idea that there need to be structured training and accredation programs, so that pro's that put the time and money into increasing their knowledge have [tangible] justification for charging more as premiere instructors, as opposed to hobby-teachers. You know, I've heard whispers of dance teacher unions... why not? Actors and other performing artists have formed them. I think your arguments, though, would be better focused at those in charge of the money teachers get paid rather than the amateurs that pay out.

There are many monitary approaches to how to achieve your competitive goals. I chose to get a non-dance career (graduated college, etc.), and live lean so I could pay for lessons. My partner and I were subsequently able to use our non-dance talents to exchange for better offers from studios and instructors. In the end, I have have health benefits and take weekly dance lessons. On the downside, I don't live in the ballroom, which I would love to do

The other side of the coin is to throw yourself completely into dancing, and teach and learn at the same time. I admire your courage, and this approach seems to be the path of the majority of professional champions. I think you have to step back and look at your situation, and decide if it will get you to your goals in the long run. In order to do that, you have to have clearly defined goals.

My goals are to have my bills paid, contingency plans for injuries, and get as good as I can at dancing in the end.

Make the best of this life, and whatever path you take, be sure that you are being treated fairly as well as getting the most out of your situation. If the situation is cheating you or just not ideal for your health/goals, it may be time to change.

 

[Chris Stratton]

I was actually under the impression that traditionally, most high level competing pros received much of their training and initally made a name for themselves as amateurs, in the youth ranks if not as adults (while using using either non-dance or parental funding sources) Under that model, those who turned pro - probably for monetary reasons - before gaining some degree of distinction as amateurs ended up in the majority of cases having to give up the chance to have real competitive careers, though there have of course been notable exceptions.

That system had it's own benefits and injustices - while it purported to be about choice, not everyone could make the choice freely. Now things are moving in a vareity of directions at once, and it's not really clear yet what is the best answer in terms of fairness to participants, development of quality competitors, general promotion of dancing, or some balance of these concerns.

 

[Porfirio Landeros]

I was actually under the impression that traditionally, most high level competing pros received much of their training and initally made a name for themselves as amateurs, in the youth ranks if not as adults (while using using either non-dance or parental funding sources)

You're right, Chris... if only we could choose our parents ;-)

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I was actually under the impression that traditionally, most high level competing pros received much of their training and initally made a name for themselves as amateurs, in the youth ranks if not as adults (while using using either non-dance or parental funding sources) Under that model, those who turned pro - probably for monetary reasons - before gaining some degree of distinction as amateurs ended up in the majority of cases having to give up the chance to have real competitive careers, though there have of course been notable exceptions.

It's easy to get that impression, and I have to admit I labored under it for a long time.

The fact is, though, that the vast majority of amateurs who do not turn pro also end up without 'real competitive careers', and the ones who manage to make it to the top of the amateur ranks before turning pro are again, notable exceptions.

Out of the ten most recent British open amateur champions who have since retired from competition, only two subsequently won the British open professional championships. The other eight all ended up retiring from their professional careers without getting to the top.

Meanwhile, the ten most recent British open professional champions are evenly split between those that first won the British open amateur championships and those that did not. (Even I was surprised when I tallied it up just now.)

 

[SDsalsaguy]

True Warren, but aside from winning it also seems that success as an amateur is the rule (not to say that there aren't exceptions!) for advancing to the final of the Pro ranks at the British, no?

 

[Chris Stratton]

The fact is, though, that the vast majority of amateurs who do not turn pro also end up without 'real competitive careers', and the ones who manage to make it to the top of the amateur ranks before turning pro are again, notable exceptions.

While I recognize the facts involved, I think a meaningfull interpretation restores some of the original argument.

Yes, most amateurs have dead end competitive careers. But I think your average college team beginner has a lot more opportunity to pursue a personally meaningfull competitive career than your average studio teacher trainee, at least in part due to the freedom to concentrate on dancing at your own pace, without spending the majority of your week with beginner/social students. If I were to turn pro today, I probably would not have the opportunity to compete at nearly the same level of performance as I do while an amateur - I wouldn't get students of sufficient skill to be able to get much personally out of the pro-am work, and even if I could find a good pro partner probably would find endless dissapointment in rising star. And that is as someone who would walk in the door with strong basic dance skills and a few years of what almost approached biweekly competition experience.

And I think that there is plenty of opportunity for people with substantial, but not world-class preparation, to turn pro and have an enjoyable and perhaps succesfull mix of pro and pro-am competition. I'm not really concerned which Blackpool pro finalists won the amateur - but I'd be far more interesed to hear if there are any in the pro final who did not first gain some degree of experience and recognition as amateurs. The exception I might expect to see would be the occasional mid-career replacement partner for someone who came up through the amatuer ranks.

Obviously, my knowlege of the overall dance scene is limited, but it's my impression that all of Boston's leading teaching and pro-am pros had amateur backgrounds. It's true that every once in a while people like Steven & Larinda who started as studio trainees manage to work hard enough, attract enough attention, and break out as real competitors or sought-after teachers. But I get the sense that most who take that path end up buried under a mountain of hard work with little opportunity to reap the rewards.

 

[DanceAm]

Weren't Ben and Shalene teachers out of a studio environment? John King and Ana Chacon, new National Rising star Champions, weren't they out of a Studio Envronment? And of course you mentioned Steve and Larinda.

I don't think an amateur career, especially youth is any free pass or even an advantage to a successful pro competion career. And College students still have courses to concentrate on, some with part time jobs, courses and then dance too. At the right studio, it is not common to teach more than 25 hours a week, and the opportunity to practice and get coachings is very good. And working with new students could be an opportunity for the teacher to work on his/her basic technique. If you are teaching basic footwork, why not practice it while your teaching. Maybe a dance background is helpful, but I still think it is up to the person. If you want a good chance at a pro career, ask Mark Ballas if his parents might be an advantage to his budding career. Maybe the right parents are the key.

Of course my examples are all primarily American Style, International might be different. But my impression is that more amateurs fall to the wayside that might have had a chance at being a successful pro competitor. Too much is left to chance, for one, finding the right partner.

Look at the list of Victor Fung's ex-partners and even John King's, have any of them really having successful pro careers at the moment? Not that they aren't good dancers, but finding a compatible partner is more like a lottery. And as far as a global scale, Ballroom dance is taught on a much larger scale to young people in other countries than it is here, so yes many of the pros outside the US were probably amateur competitors, but there is probably an ocean of once hopefuls now with families and regular jobs.

Sure there are advantages and disadvantages in every situation, and I am sure the rates of attrition are high for all environments of ballroom dance. If we are looking at the ideal situation, it doesn't garrantee success. Common traits of the most successful have little to do with environment, but more to do with the person. Successful people are not successful because of money or education or finding the right niche. Studies have shown that successful people would probably be successful in whatever they did because of their personal drive, dedication, and willingness to sacrifice all else in pursuit of a goal. Then there is just plain luck mixed in. That is why Bill Gates and that Oracle CEO (I forget his name) became billionaires and never finished college.

 

[cl5814]

Larry Ellison is the CEO of Oracle.

Very interesting thread. Thanks to all for expressing your opinions.

 

[Laura]

Weren't Ben and Shalene teachers out of a studio environment? John King and Ana Chacon, new National Rising star Champions, weren't they out of a Studio Envronment? And of course you mentioned Steve and Larinda.

And David & Valentina (Rising Star Smooth). And Jon Roberts (just won US Rising Star Latin at Emerald, dances Latin with former high-level amateur Anya Trebunskaya).

Look at the list of Victor Fung's ex-partners and even John King's, have any of them really having successful pro careers at the moment?

Aira Bubelneyte (I know this is spelled wrong) went back to Lithuania and became their National Pro Standard Champion. Then she and her new partner Tomas moved here and did very well at Emerald Ball. Once they meet residency requirements, they will do very well in the US National Pro Championships. And Ieva Pauksena is doing great with Giampiero.

but finding a compatible partner is more like a lottery.

VERY true, no matter what level you're one!!

 

[spatten]

Yes, most amateurs have dead end competitive careers. But I think your average college team beginner has a lot more opportunity to pursue a personally meaningfull competitive career than your average studio teacher trainee, at least in part due to the freedom to concentrate on dancing at your own pace, without spending the majority of your week with beginner/social students.

In the end, as much as I try to fight the truth of it, I think neither of these situations lend themselves to having a truly meaningful comeptitive career. I realize there are exceptions - but the best beginners are those who started at age 6, had access to talented coaches, and the determination to make it through the teen years.

These are the real pro's in my mind. Though I will spend the next couple of decades of my life trying to disprove it.

 

[DanceAm]

These are the real pro's in my mind. Though I will spend the next couple of decades of my life trying to disprove it.

I like that attitude.

 

[Chris Stratton]

When I wrote that post, I put the modifier "personally" on meaningfull competitive career. Not everyone is going to make Blackpool finals in either the pro or amateur division. So I was concentrating more on who might or might not find their external situation supportive of an effort to reach their own internal potential.

It remains my impression that there is little opportunity for pros who are not or not yet among the best of the best to compete. If someone starts as a beginner, it would be quite a while before they were really ready for rising star - superficial preparation might be accomplished quickly, but the sort of real preparation necessary to do well would take time. And experience they would be unlikely to get from competing with the low-level pro-am students a trainee teacher would probably be assigned. So I think that someone who turns pro without the preparation to attract attention in rising star risks being stuck in a non-competitive corner of the industry - unless they can finance some improvement on their own, luck out with strong students, attract attention of someone who believes in their potential, etc.

In contrast, developing amateurs have competition opportunities at all levels, ranging from a few weeks of experience up to decades. As they near the top of each stage in that progression, they have the opportunity to be momentarily king of th hill - to achieve both personal satisfaction and external recognition.