What makes you cringe in tango?

[Brummbaer]

competition

Maybe, once upon a time. Nowadays it's ritual humiliation.

I've never come across anyone inspired by the dance shows either. Maybe, somewhere in the world... I've come across dancers in other disciplines who take an interest in the entertainment.

 

[Bailango]

I don't know anyone who started dancing because of the TV shows, which are all about competition and don't make it look accessible.

Same here. They might have been inspired by a local shows. I haven’t met anyone who started dancing after watching TV shows.

 

[JournalInTime]

I don't know anyone who started dancing because of the TV shows

I've never come across anyone inspired by the dance shows either.

They might have been inspired by a local shows. I haven’t met anyone who started dancing after watching TV shows.

It always amazes me how much regions differ! I know several people who came to AT through TV shows. But "inspired by a local show" might be key:

Two local teachers made it to the final round of a competitive, all-styles dance show in my region with tango escenario choreographies. That brought both of them many students who had no prior interest in AT, which in turn means that we now have dancers who arrived by way of (1) see A. & M. dance on TV, (2) approach A. or M. (who perform but do not teach together) for AT lessons, and (3) end up dancing in the local milongas. I often dance with a couple of them, so this is verified firsthand.

I'm increasingly coming to suspect that my perspective on AT is heavily colored by the fact that I live in a separatist francophone enclave that, due to being surrounded by a sea of anglophone culture, aggressively asserts its distinctive culture character on pretty much everything – particularly in arts-and-entertainment domains such as music, dance, theatre, cinema, television, comedy, and even circus arts and stage magic. The region has its own popular culture, mass media, and nightlife nothing like those of the rest of Canada, much less the U.S.A. And it seems to affect AT quite a bit . . . I've recently danced with tango tourists from some far-flung places who've described it as "good, but very different."

 

[brujo]

I'm increasingly coming to suspect that my perspective on AT is heavily colored by the fact that I live in a separatist francophone enclave that, due to being surrounded by a sea of anglophone culture, aggressively asserts its distinctive culture character on pretty much everything – particularly in arts-and-entertainment domains such as music, dance, theatre, cinema, television, comedy, and even circus arts and stage magic. The region has its own popular culture, mass media, and nightlife nothing like those of the rest of Canada, much less the U.S.A. And it seems to affect AT quite a bit . . . I've recently danced with tango tourists from some far-flung places who've described it as "good, but very different."

Can't speak for Quebec but I was shocked at how many fewer black people were in other areas of Canada once I moved away from Toronto. It was really weird to see how small things you took for granted like having little pockets of Greek, Italian, Portuguese neighborhoods simply didn't exist in places like Vancouver where the population was really just white and Asian. I think this cultural diversity also allows people to be more curious about other cultural things like dance. The income gaps between dancers and non-dancers also feels a bit more pronounced in the US, where you feel that in order to dance you have to be of a certain money level whereas it is more equitable and common in Canada.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think it is an addiction, but I don't judge because we have all been addicted to some degree or other, probably still are otherwise we wouldn't be posting on here

That's one way to look at it. It reminds me of the saying, "Anyone who runs faster than me is doping."
Although I don't think tango as a lifestyle is a bad thing. You retire, buy a camper van, find a partner who also dances tango, take occasional couples' lessons, travel to events - there are certainly worse ways to live. I know several people like that.

It's a completely different story if you want to earn a living from it. In this country, the optimal balance between effort and enjoyment is among relatively well-off couples who have taken two or three tango courses, therefore dance mediocre, but have a lot of fun to dance. At the unofficial VIP table, on the other hand, you're more likely to find tired, hungry people eating their pizza straight from the cardboard box, seldom dancing and not quite sure how they're going to pay the rent, let alone save for retirement.

 

[JournalInTime]

Can't speak for Quebec but I was shocked at how many fewer black people were in other areas of Canada once I moved away from Toronto.

Québec has a significant Black population almost entirely on the strength of Haitians plus a sprinkling of people from Dominica, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint-Barthélemy, Saint Lucia, and Saint-Martin. That pattern is about language (French), not skin color . . . If a place speaks French or sort-of French, it has an expat community here.

It was really weird to see how small things you took for granted like having little pockets of Greek, Italian, Portuguese neighborhoods simply didn't exist in places like Vancouver

Montréal has such communities. I formerly lived in Little Portugal. I pass through Little Italy (we have the second-largest Italian community in Canada) two or three times a week on my way to dance, and that's southeast of an area with a tapestry of Arab, South Asian, and Greek communities. To one side of that axis is a Hasidic enclave, and there are also Latin American neighborhoods scattered here and there. We have a small Chinatown, and most of our cab drivers (and my landlord) come from the Maghreb.

The larger region of Québec is much more of a cultural monotone. There's a "Montréal vs. everybody else" divide, defined in part by Montréal being almost a city-state and quite cosmopolitan, while everybody else glowers at us and blames all of their problems on "immigrants," despite most those "immigrants" being the grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. of actual immigrants. Québec's sovereignty (secessionist) movement is weakest in Montréal – and where it's strongest (outside the city), it smells of nationalism one short step from racism.

where the population was really just white and Asian.

Outside of Montréal, "really just white" is about right. You've also described our milongas, though: A sea of white, a generous dose of East Asian, and then . . . not a lot else. If you subtract the women of European (especially French and Eastern European) and East Asian (especially Chinese) origin from my partner list, I have about three people to dance with.

I think this cultural diversity also allows people to be more curious about other cultural things like dance.

I think you are 100% correct. Fortunately, the teaching element of our tango community more honestly shows our local ethnic breakdown. It's the ordinary dancers who are unusually unrepresentative.

The income gaps between dancers and non-dancers also feels a bit more pronounced in the US, where you feel that in order to dance you have to be of a certain money level whereas it is more equitable and common in Canada.

There are still far more dual-income professional couples at our milongas than on our streets in general. My coach volunteered at our latest marathon and afterward said, "It was for rich young people. If I hadn't volunteered, I couldn't have afforded to go." After my favorite milonga, you can see dancers leaving in a steady stream of BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, etc. autos.

It would be fair (though argument-provoking in some circles) to assert that Montréal is more culturally diverse than its surroundings, and probably at least as culturally diverse as Toronto, but insulated on all sides by a white francophone population that engages in cultural nationalism and blames immigrants for its problems. It would also be fair to say that people at Montréal's milongas have a disproportionately high average income, and a greater chance of being white or East Asian than the average person on the street outside.

 

[opendoor]

...a steady stream of BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, etc..

I read your sociological analysis with great interest. Thank you!

 

[JournalInTime]

I read your sociological analysis with great interest. Thank you!

You are most welcome! Of course, I am not a sociologist. I also expect Mr. Moustachio to show up out of nowhere to contradict my 35 years of experience with this city. Still, I stand by what I said, because (1) I'm a lifelong political activist (though with age I've drifted from anarchism to socialism); (2) I've lived in English Canada for 23 years and French Canada for 35 years, have family on both sides of the line, and speak the two languages fluently; and (3) my father received Canada's highest honor for civilian achievement, in the domain of social sciences, and until his death in 2017 informally educated me in that domain to the tune of many hours a week. Anyone who claims that Québec isn't dangerously close to racist nationalism, and excessively white, or that Montréal milongas aren't full of wealthier-than-average white and East Asian people, is going to have to fight me.

 

[JournalInTime]

Spinning off from my wordy derailment to get back on topic:

Prejudice at the milonga is 100% cringe.

If you won't dance with somebody because of their ethnicity, skin color, language, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, etc., you are a cringeworthy person. If you believe that people in some such group shouldn't even be at the milonga, you are a highly cringeworthy person.

And yes, I've seen all of the above in person, such as:

• As recently as two days ago: Nationalist francophones openly sneering at unilingual anglophones. « Ici on parle français ! » Dude, she's an American tourist!
  
  
• This past summer: A man saying snotty things about a tattooed, pierced "alt-culture" tanguera who I happen to regard as a friend.
  
  
• Last year: After dancing with a Middle Eastern woman, being told, "Why did you dance with one of them?"
  
  
• In 2022: Not one but several friends of Chinese ethnicity snubbed when the milongas reopened after the pandemic, by people saying, "It's thanks to Chinese like you that we had a plague!" Not subtly – I heard it.
  
  
• In 2018: A Black woman who sat forever until I invited her to dance. She danced well. Then she sat more afterward.
  
  
• From a creep at the bar back in 2016: "Don't dance with her. She's a lesbian. You have no chance."

Were I an organizer, if someone came to me to say they'd had an experience like that, I'd put the prejudiced person on the black list at the door, along with the names of people known to not pay, start fights, etc.

 

[tangoing]

Yikes, I’ve never heard anything like that at all in the nyc scene.

 

[JournalInTime]

Yikes, I’ve never heard anything like that at all in the nyc scene.

To be fair: I am a True Believer in cultural mosaics and inclusion, I am pro-immigration, and I am a sworn foe of cultural melting pots, "integration," and nationalism. Someone whose eyes and ears aren't dialed up as high as mine in those areas might never notice the things I observed. Our scene isn't horrible . . . it could just do a lot better.

 

[brujo]

Outside of Montréal, "really just white" is about right. You've also described our milongas, though: A sea of white, a generous dose of East Asian, and then . . . not a lot else. If you subtract the women of European (especially French and Eastern European) and East Asian (especially Chinese) origin from my partner list, I have about three people to dance with.

I didn't learn tango in Toronto but at least in the other dance scenes the breakdowns were a little more subtle than white or East Asian. For example, there were a lot of Russians, Ukrainians, Polish and French Canadians under the 'white' umbrella that weren't really people that grew up in English speaking Canada. Also had a ton of folks from the Philippines. I think the demographics in Quebec might be a bit more different simply because to immigrate it meant you also have to agree to do things like put kids in French speaking schools which to some is a bit of a dealbreaker.

 

[JournalInTime]

For example, there were a lot of Russians, Ukrainians, Polish and French Canadians under the 'white' umbrella that weren't really people that grew up in English speaking Canada.

For sure. My "white" referred to skin color regardless of national or ethnic origin, and I was trying (but quite possibly failing) to differentiate biases associated with that from the pro-francophone bias. That said, there's a certain subset of people here who assume that if your skin is white, you should speak French, while if your skin isn't white, you probably don't (unless you're Haitian); so, in practice these biases end up interacting in new and offensive ways. Me, I start conversations with "Français? English?" no matter what a person looks like . . . works well.

 

[Bailango]

Someone whose eyes and ears aren't dialed up as high as mine in those areas might never notice the things I observed. Our scene isn't horrible . . . it could just do a lot better.

There is another point being missed.

@tangoing is referring to NYC scene. You have often characterize your Montreal scene as largely static. By static I meant far less dancers move from Montreal to other cities, therefore leaving the scene. NYC is likely to be more fluid. More people moving to NYC and then more people leaving NYC for greener pastures elsewhere.

We have exchanged a few notes on how different our respective scenes are. We get a sufficient number of dancers who learnt elsewhere and moved here. Slightly more dancers leave the scene each year because they are moving out of the area. In our place hardly anyone you meet at work or socially is native. While in Montreal I believe most of the people are native. That then gets reflected in composition of dancers at a milonga and attitude. If everyone is from somewhere else then certain type of discrimination is far less.

Natives everywhere have a nostalgia for older/better times. Something that newcomers or transplants can not share. The changes are then often blamed on the arrival of transplants. When you mix ethno or linguistic nationalism into that, people can feel justified in othering the others.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I think this cultural diversity also allows people to be more curious about other cultural things like dance.

Yes, this!

The vast majority of people in my small town scene in a very red southern state, are foreigners, ethnically diverse, or at least partnered with someone from the above groups. Many are not locals, and the tango subculture represents an oasis of welcoming in an otherwise rather stifling culture. This mobility - it’s not just large cities that have people coming and going - has also caused many to move away, which explains partly how our scene completely collapsed since the pandemic.

In contrast, in my other scene in southern Germany, the clientele is normal locals. A few languages are spoken (German, Swiss German, French, Italian, and Spanish), but there’s definitely not a lot of diversity.

Btw, with all your talking about Montreal, it triggered some memories I had forgotten. One of my very first encounters with several Latin club style dances was in Montreal in the early/mid 90’s. I was several times visiting my at the time best girlfriend who had temporarily moved back there from NY. She, a musician originally from Martinique, was playing in the band of a very successful Haitian singer from Montreal, and she brought me along to some of their gigs where the clientele was at least as diverse as anything I knew from NYC. She showed me some steps and moves. I also saw them perform in a club in NY (downtown, west side, the name eludes me) which was much later a place I’d frequently go to catch live salsa bands and dance. So, for sure, dance and music from other cultures was on my radar long before I took dancing seriously myself.