ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
We used to have one but it closed during the pandemic. Was a popular spot, too.
What makes you cringe in tango?
- Thread starter TTanguero
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brujo
Well-Known Member
This is what is worrying. It feels like a bunch of scenes and spaces have not recovered much from the pandemic. A lot of organizers in other dances I’m talking to also say that people are not going out as much due to issues like not being able to afford things and being afraid of losing their jobs.
Argentina also feels like it’s gotten a lot more expensive. You hear about meals costing as much as the US now, which makes me wonder how the tango scene there would look like in the next ten years or so with fewer people going from abroad.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Very much so.
At least here, there has never been much money in tango. Schools and studios run on shoestring budgets, with no cash reserves. A couple of years of pandemic lockdowns, curfews, restrictions on gatherings, etc. – again, at least here – shut down their revenue streams, leaving them to pay years of rent or mortgage, and basic physical upkeep, out of almost nothing. Consequently, a few lost spaces or staff.
When things reopened, it was a cold start, often in new surroundings that existing dancers didn't know or didn't like. A few older dancers had died, sometimes of the virus but more often because they didn't have those years left. Many dance teachers, unable to make a living teaching dance, moved to other domains and were slow to return or didn't return. A group activity involving hugging strangers in an often crowded, sweaty room was a much harder sell to a public that had spent years avoiding groups, physical contact, and enclosed spaces.
There were appeals to the tango community to help with funds. Only a few of us contributed. Despite not having a lot of disposable income, I sent a significant donation after each paycheck (far greater than what I'd have paid for, say, milongas and classes in that time); however, many people called me crazy for doing so. Inside sources tell me that the wealthy jet-setters who chase festivals and dance overseas were not generous . . . they used the resources they'd have dedicated to tango to arrange private, not-very-legal events instead.
Many schools and studios applied to various levels of government for grants and subsidies intended to restart the arts and cultural activities after the pandemic. They were turned down. Governments here don't recognize Argentine tango as art or as part of our culture, and classify milongas and tango schools as entertainment or hospitality businesses, no more entitled to aid than bars, discotheques, nightclubs, or restaurants (many of which also went out of business . . .).
All of that – abrupt shutdowns without safety nets in place, lack of loyalty and generosity in the tango community, secret clubs that defied public-health measures, denial of artistic/cultural status for tango, etc. – is a huge cringe for me.
This is definitely true here, but I wouldn't link it to the pandemic at this point. Sure, that was a blow to the economy, but here in Canada, it pales to insignificance next to the effects of Canada-U.S. trade war triggered by Trump's executive orders. As a Canadian contractor for a U.S. company, I am acutely aware of the details. In brief, cost of living has shot way, way up and trade and business opportunities are way, way down. I am presently on 3/4 time as a direct result of this situation (i.e., my revenues are -25%), while my unavoidable expenses have increased by about 5%.
I danced with a lovely woman the other night and made the mistake of saying, "Hey, I don't see you here as often as before! Where are you dancing, now?" She grew sad and told me she isn't dancing anywhere as often as before, because it costs too much. My tango coach is earning almost nothing from tango, and has restructured her income around Pilates. It's a real effect.
The people I know with the money to travel seem to go there as often as before. However, they are taking shorter trips and complaining about the expense. This past week, a different tanguera who spends lots of time in BA told me, "Honestly, the dancing isn't much better. It's just that it was far cheaper to live, study, and dance there than here. The difference is so small now that this might be my last year." I don't think we fully appreciate the extent to which BA was seen as the Mecca of tango more for reasons of low costs than for its cultural status.
I know some expats from around the world that live there that are now considering moving to europe, since it’s the same price as the cheaper european cities but without all the amenities.
I don’t think this will change tourists, especially those who do those catered toured packages and/or pay the most famous teachers there $100+/lesson.
I think tango may potentially be the least profitable of all the main dances despite the average age of the dancer being higher and thus having more disposable income (or retirement money). I think this is just due to the volume of other dances: swing, salsa/bachata, all the BR dances are just way more popular to the general populace, not entirely sure about the newer ones like zouk, sensual bachata, and fusion / contact improv etc.
brujo
Well-Known Member
Tango and ballroom seem the only private lessons encouraged dances in the list. Which is probably more profitable. At least for the social dances that I know or tried ( salsa / bachata, fusion, lindy, zouk ), a lot of the teaching is group lessons and practices. People would pay some money for workshops, congresses or being part of a performance team training. Some folks take privates but most don’t and if they did it would be a handful of classes at most. You notice this in the advertising and events as well. When tango instructors come they often have private lesson spots advertised with their workshops. Never seen that in any of the other dances ( but I never tried ballroom ).
It's basically down to what the market will stand - so where you want to use your money. And it's relative to other costs.
You have to look at how social AT has developed outside BsAs.
- Some people got interested and formed a group ('club').
- Someone was either one step ahead of the rest, or they were acquainted with someone from the Argentine diaspora who knew AT. Maybe they were a stage performer.
- Either someone had a suitable room, or someone allowed them to use some space, or they rented space at low cost.
- They wanted to know more, so acquired a 'teacher' for a workshop - maybe someone else from the diaspora. Then another teacher for another workshop...
- As interest continued, someone saw an opportunity to teach others. Maybe you can pay some bills if you charge a reasonable amount...
- It grows. There's sufficient interest for multiple groups, or groups elsewhere. Some travel to BsAs to learn more. And then come back to teach (or sell the book, or film...). Teaching AT becomes another 'hustle'. Maybe they have an income to pay the bills, and AT is just a side hustle. Maybe teaching AT is one of many side hustles. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a more permanent venue? And gave courses? Where do they live (cheaply)? Hence some developments like El Corte (and others). The relative costs of such an enterprise now probably make it impossible unless you have considerable funds available. Some groups do!
BR (and AT) for competition is just another elite sport for those who can afford it. And many if the target demographic are too old, or have other responsibilities. I've seen 'competition' ruin other recreational activities.
But what provides the teacher's 'bread and butter' income? Limited elite 'sport' or many recreational participants?
At best you're likely to get a small amount from everyone (hence group lessons, or organising a milonga, or festival...). A few people, with funds, will pay for private lessons, or travel for holiday courses, or similar. Others will pool funds for encuentros, marathons or festivals. There's no free teaching and práctica on the patio. The sexual objective has gone. There's little interest in competing. But it's all down to numbers (how many?), their available time, and what they're prepared to pay - what the market will stand.
You have to retain people (keep them coming back for more), or have readily available new recruits (e.g. in a metropolis). Most of all the 'teacher' has to work to promote the business.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Friend who recently returned told me that restaurants, decent but not high-end, were almost as expensive as in NYC, which shocked me since prices here are very high now across the board. However, she said that everything else was far less expensive than here. Even with the favorable exchange rate, she told me that the dining scene there is almost as expensive as here. (It's cheaper to eat in Europe, or was last time I was in France.)
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I read a shocking statistic the other day about food prices, which have risen dramatically across the country. However, in NYC, they've gone 62% in the last ten years. Everyone is complaining now.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
I’ve been back in the US for 2 1/2 months and I have only had the opportunity to dance locally twice in two-hour practicas with at most 10 people present including the hosts. My old maestro closed his school. It used to be such a happening scene for a small city. He now loses money every class he holds because renting a space costs more than the $15/ person cost of the one class per week that he holds. He announced it as a beginners class to get newcomers, but almost everyone attending have danced as long as I have, and mostly come just to support him and to not completely lose technique, with a vague hope that the scene will miraculously revive. I know a few people who wanted to start, but if there’s no place to dance, why should they bother learn…
It’s so sad.
My other scene in Germany has in stark contrast really taken off after Covid. More regular events and in larger spaces. More special events, and more high profile guests. I wish I could move there full time.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
I haven’t been there myself, but this statement is similar to what I’ve heard from friends.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Rent is certainly an issue here.
We have dedicated tango studios that are also schools that are also milongas, but almost none of them own their spaces (I say "almost" because it isn't 100% clear in one case). They rent. This does not mean that they rent for an evening here, an afternoon there at a general-purpose studio or similar space – because while we have those, they are "first come, first served," and you can't reserve them at the same time every week (I know because I've tried). Rather, it means they have an annual lease on a commercial space, which they turn into a tango space. If there's non-tango going on there, it's because they sublet timeslots to help cover the rent.
Anyway, rent on residential spaces is capped by law, because housing is a basic need, but there are no caps on commercial or industrial rents . . . those are entirely negotiable. Rents on commercial spaces, such as lofts and storefronts, have skyrocketed since 2019, with some hitting the +300% mark (yes, quadruple the rent of six years ago). There are entire commercial strips with "For Rent" signs and no takers, and the property owners seem fine with that. Among other things, these high rents have created the scramble for general-purpose studio timeslots.
In short, you can pay huge rent for a studio to call your own (which is what you need if you want a weekly milonga at a time and in a place people remember – moving tango events outright fail here), or you can compete to rent studio timeslots that are fewer in number than the people who want to rent them.
I know the numbers for one tango studio. They had a great place a few steps around the corner from one of the city's major commercial streets, between two metro lines, in the heart of downtown. Everybody could get there easily. When they closed their doors during the pandemic, they had to let the lease lapse . . . but when dance studios were legally permitted to reopen, the rent there had more than doubled. They had to float from temporary home to temporary home until they found a leaky-ceilinged place far from their old one, not nearly as accessible, in a not-great area that has had issues like roaming muggers with baseball bats and a murder.
They don’t make money either unless instructors are international stars that get invited for festivals. But their productive years are limited too.
Zouk and fusion aren’t as popular as bachata sensual and Kizomba. The latter are popular in Europe. Not popular enough in the USA for 95% to make money
Fusion and blues are a niche mostly run by bohemian style people.
Contact improv can hardly be labeled as a scene.
You are mixing different dances in the same breath as if they are equal. They are not.
Most zouk and sensual bachata instructors do not depend on it for their income. They have regular jobs.
If as a dance instructor you have enough demand for people to take privates from you, you could make living full time as instructor. Otherwise it is out of question. Some tango and salsa instructors are able to make a living. I don’t know about BR. But BR dancers tend to take a lot of privates judging from the DF. Therefore probably more BR instructors can make living teaching compared to the social dance instructors.
Overall I have witnessed all kinds of instructors struggling to make a living by teaching dance full time. It has increased in the past decade.
brujo
Well-Known Member
This is different depending on location. In Oregon you won’t find kizomba, zouk or sensual bachata outside of Portland. Most cities have a pretty healthy fusion/blues/lindy/west coast swing/tango/salsa scene. But most are ran by passionate volunteers with other full time jobs.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I'm not sure that anybody earns a full-time living teaching a single style of social dance around here. I have met teachers of "all Latin," "all ballroom," or even "all partner dance" – and "all country dance" – who were employed full-time by large, brand-name studios. However, full-time teachers around here are found mostly in performance styles, which in practice means ballet, modern, jazz, and contemporary, plus a sprinkling of hip hop. They usually work at admission-restricted academies or university dance departments (we have a few of both), or are associated with touring companies or troupes (like my coach was and one of her ex-teaching partners still is).
In tango in particular, I do know a few people who earn their entire living from it, but as studio owners. Their money comes from offering classes, prácticas, milongas, and special events (such as festivalitos and galas); renting their space to part-time and touring tango teachers; and above all renting their space for non-tango dances (almost all disciplines), fitness (Essentrics, Feldenkrais, Pilates, Zumba, various cardio programs, etc.), and martial arts. They spend more time maintaining studios, arranging calendars, supervising part-time staff, paying bills, etc. than on teaching tango, and most end up not teaching at all because they're too busy with all that other stuff.
I've never heard of a blues or contact improv "school." That stuff seems to be the realm of co-ops that have nominal leadership, approaching bars and clubs to do their thing a few times a month, or just chipping in to rent a studio for it (I used to know a collective like that). My mental image of those scenes is "essentially unorganized." I don't think there's much money there . . . the people often seem to have a strongly anti-capitalist vibe.
There is money in running a bar that hosts kiz or salsa, say, but the dance is more of a marketing element that help sell the bar. Which is to say, it's the bar receipts that keep the doors open. It's really a variation on the "studio owner" case above . . . tango has studio owners who run studios more than teach tango, and who rent those studios to other disciplines, while "urban" styles have club owners who run clubs more than teach dance, and who rent those bars for things like "blues nights."
In tango in particular, I do know a few people who earn their entire living from it, but as studio owners. Their money comes from offering classes, prácticas, milongas, and special events (such as festivalitos and galas); renting their space to part-time and touring tango teachers; and above all renting their space for non-tango dances (almost all disciplines), fitness (Essentrics, Feldenkrais, Pilates, Zumba, various cardio programs, etc.), and martial arts. They spend more time maintaining studios, arranging calendars, supervising part-time staff, paying bills, etc. than on teaching tango, and most end up not teaching at all because they're too busy with all that other stuff.
I've never heard of a blues or contact improv "school." That stuff seems to be the realm of co-ops that have nominal leadership, approaching bars and clubs to do their thing a few times a month, or just chipping in to rent a studio for it (I used to know a collective like that). My mental image of those scenes is "essentially unorganized." I don't think there's much money there . . . the people often seem to have a strongly anti-capitalist vibe.
There is money in running a bar that hosts kiz or salsa, say, but the dance is more of a marketing element that help sell the bar. Which is to say, it's the bar receipts that keep the doors open. It's really a variation on the "studio owner" case above . . . tango has studio owners who run studios more than teach tango, and who rent those studios to other disciplines, while "urban" styles have club owners who run clubs more than teach dance, and who rent those bars for things like "blues nights."