What steps should never be taught?

[dchester]

Actually, I did show people that yesterday (admittedly, I felt a bit dirty after) - but mainly to show why it's a Very Bad Thing to do in social dancing, as large sidesteps are not recommended in milongas.

In fact, the entire theme of the class morphed from "crosses" to "sidesteps are evil" somehow...

Geez, usually it's the back step that the heretics get all upset about.

 

[newbie]

I know teachers who teach the 8CB without the 1. So it is a 7CB, except when you reach the 8 you cannot do a 2, so they teach a 3 instead. So it becomes a 6CB, except the first one which is a 7CB. And they changed the counts as well, their 4 is our 5.
Needless to say, their students have a hard time when they switch to another teacher.

 

[UKDancer]

Geez, usually it's the back step that the heretics get all upset about.

I was thinking that too. My teaching society's 'definition' for the 8CB has the back step interchangeable with a 'one beat hesitation (ie you start on 2 to the side), or a point to the side, without weight, before closing again (in double time), both of which I prefer to that back step. Surely the side step needn't be very big? I prefer to think of it in terms of predominantly forward step, with a sideways component, which in BR technique we would call a fwd step preparing to step outside partner.

 

[bordertangoman]

In fact, the entire theme of the class morphed from "crosses" to "sidesteps are evil" somehow...

Good gracious; do you hobble your students? as far as I'm concerned my sidestep defines my dance lane, we're not in BsAs milonga after all. The only place where I might need to adjust this is Cambridge when it gets busy and there are two definite lines of dance, and since I can see to my left its pretty obvious when its not a good idea to take a side step.

If you over emphasise caution in beginners you will get a bunch of unconfident woolly leaders. I take the view that long steps instill confident clear leading, once you have that you can start making smaller steps.

 

[Peaches]

Hmmm... I've always considered the 8CB to be a teaching tool, not meant to really be danced, because it combines so many distinct and separate fundamentals. The point to the side is, IMO, more of an advanced move which doesn't belong there. Not to mention wrt floorcraft, it could be considered just as dangerous to be sticking your feet out in a point as it would be to take a backstep. Which brings me to another point (and pet peeve)--the back step can be perfectly safe if it is tweaked. There is nothing that says the back step has to be big and huge--it can be a back step of only a few inches. Surely a few inches isn't going to present a problem.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Surely the side step needn't be very big? I prefer to think of it in terms of predominantly forward step, with a sideways component, which in BR technique we would call a fwd step preparing to step outside partner.

Basically, my problem with the 8CB - even without the insanely-stupid backstep - is that it creates a big gap to your left, which you leave open for several steps, and you then step blindly back into that space. "Blindly", because the woman's head is likely to be in your way so you're stepping into a blind spot.

And there's every possibility that you'll then crash into another couple who have decided to come up along your right hand side.

There's a variation of this one I learnt, with a diagonal sidestep - there's a review here, with a diagram which hopefully makes it clear. That version opens up far less space. But it still opens a little.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Good gracious; do you hobble your students?

Would that work? Hmmm... may be worth a try

If you over emphasise caution in beginners you will get a bunch of unconfident woolly leaders. I take the view that long steps instill confident clear leading, once you have that you can start making smaller steps.

Sure - but I simply emphasized that confidence it in context of forward steps rather than side steps. You don't have to do sidesteps for anything, unless you want to.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Hmmm... I've always considered the 8CB to be a teaching tool, not meant to really be danced, because it combines so many distinct and separate fundamentals.

Sure, but as I mentioned elsewhere, people don't listen to what you tell them to do. If you teach the 8CB, people will do the 8CB in social dancing.

 

[UKDancer]

Basically, my problem with the 8CB - even without the insanely-stupid backstep - is that it creates a big gap to your left, which you leave open for several steps, and you then step blindly back into that space. "Blindly", because the woman's head is likely to be in your way so you're stepping into a blind spot.

And there's every possibility that you'll then crash into another couple who have decided to come up along your right hand side.

There's a variation of this one I learnt, with a diagonal sidestep - there's a review here, with a diagram which hopefully makes it clear. That version opens up far less space. But it still opens a little.

I assume you mean a big gap to the right?

Actually if I dance to a cruzada using what amounts to 2-5 of the 8CB, I do more-or-less do what the diagram suggests, directionally. My leader's side step is taken not to the side, but diagonally forward (with the feeling of stepping around my partner). I would hope not to have ever stepped sideways far enough for any one to try anything as rude as to pass me on my blind side, particularly as I will have taken care that no one could consider that I have, myself, changed lanes.

 

[Subliminal]

I am reminded of a class I took last year which was all about dancing in tiny spaces. Really fun class. The teacher set up an obstacle course with extremely narrow lanes going around the room. Not even enough room for a big sidestep, much less a full giro. The teacher told us to dance, and we HAD to use more than just walking. What most of us figured out very quickly is that when quarters are that tight, it becomes all about the angles. If you aim diagonal to the right instead of forward, you can get a full sidestep going down line of dance, or even a small backstep. And still follow the rules about diagonal steps and collecting. You could even do a full 8CB in a tiny space, it'll just be very zigzaggy.

The same goes for fancy steps too. If I begin a giro to my right when I am facing backwards and a little toward the center of the floor, I could follow it with a sacada or gancho into the turn and make the step go down line of dance.

People just need to be taught more geometry imo.

 

[salthepal]

I am reminded of a class I took last year which was all about dancing in tiny spaces. Really fun class. The teacher set up an obstacle course with extremely narrow lanes going around the room. Not even enough room for a big sidestep, much less a full giro. The teacher told us to dance, and we HAD to use more than just walking. What most of us figured out very quickly is that when quarters are that tight, it becomes all about the angles. If you aim diagonal to the right instead of forward, you can get a full sidestep going down line of dance, or even a small backstep. And still follow the rules about diagonal steps and collecting. You could even do a full 8CB in a tiny space, it'll just be very zigzaggy.

The same goes for fancy steps too. If I begin a giro to my right when I am facing backwards and a little toward the center of the floor, I could follow it with a sacada or gancho into the turn and make the step go down line of dance.

People just need to be taught more geometry imo.

I wanna take that class too! Actually, I think I might try to teach it at some point! I have one guy in my beginner class who's a move monster (like the Cookie Monster, but for tango moves). Whenever I'm going over the technique of any movement, he just nods his head and asks for the next move. An obstacle course sounds like it might slow him down and make him think about the quality of the movement instead of just more moves!

 

[Dave Bailey]

I assume you mean a big gap to the right?

Oh yes...

 

[Dave Bailey]

I am reminded of a class I took last year which was all about dancing in tiny spaces. Really fun class. The teacher set up an obstacle course with extremely narrow lanes going around the room. Not even enough room for a big sidestep, much less a full giro.

I've done that a couple of different ways in workshops:
- The serious version: cordoned off a tiny area of the studio and get them to dance in this small area.
- The fun version: I teach in a gym studio which has those big balancing ball things on racks. I got those out and used them as obstacles. I then got the balls rolling around randomly and got students to try to avoid those obstacles. Shoulda filmed that one

 

[dchester]

Sure, but as I mentioned elsewhere, people don't listen to what you tell them to do. If you teach the 8CB, people will do the 8CB in social dancing.

That hasn't been my experience, as long as the teacher explains that it's a teaching tool, and not the basis of the dance. I was taught the 8CB and I've never used it during milongas.

 

[UKDancer]

... but I still see some teachers putting in high adornos in crowded milongas;one couple in Birmingham in particluar; any time they were next to me on the dance floor I made sure I was between them and my partner. I wouldnt allow them to dance at my milongas.

Ha Ha! I wonder who you mean? The Birmingham scene is very odd.