What's the difference: Lindy Hop Vs. East Coast Swing?

[tangotime]

Do you know the reasons for this development? And do you know why the european variant of Rock n´roll was named Boogie Woogie?


And do you know why East coast swing trades in Europe as Jive, and in France as Be-Bop? And... And.... And (sorry)

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

"We", the english, picked up these terms from the American servicemen based here in the 40s. They also were re inforced by songs with those words in the lyrics ( Andrew sisters for e.g. ).

As to ECS being called Jive, it isnt, and wasnt. Jive was an adaption of the swing genres the were present in the 40/50s that were modified to suit the the more decorous style of B/room.And we also "stole " that word from the States .

 

[tangotime]

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

Its a blend of Bop and some Lindy.. a little too contrived, from the way we used to dance .

 

[Steve Pastor]

Long time ago TangoTime, and Butler's Encyclopedia of Social Dance made me aware of Bill Black's Combo, and the fact that their music was used for Western Swing / West Coast Swing in th eearly 60s. Many of Black's songs had a "shuffle rhythm". Shuffle rhythm is similar in nature to "swing". There is also a "country shuffle" that is similar.

Rockabilly, as in Gene Vincent's "Dance to the Bop" has swung triples, something is fairly common in the original rockabilly. Brian Setzer, for one, brought a rockabilly sensibility to his swing music.

 

[Flat Shoes]

There are many many swing styles and names. Some names are reused for several styles, especially rock'n'roll and jive are used for very different things.

It's common to say that Lindy Hop is where it all comes from. But Lindy Hop is itself a blend of many different styles and influences, and there is no one true definition or way to dance Lindy. Also Lindy is in constant development, and is not the same today as it was "back then". (And even "back then" it was several things.)

Many of the styles are much simpler than Lindy, and they developed before internet and Youtube. Which means it was spread through people travelling and sharing what they knew, and people trying to imitate what they saw in movies or on TV. Also ever changing music caused the styles to change and adopt. What people danced to Benny Goodman and to Elvis Presley should look and feel different.

It's impossible, I think, to uniquely define Lindy, ECS and other "street" style swings. Maybe a bit easier when it comes to Boogie Woogie and WCS, which I think (note *think*) are slightly more studio driven.

So if you try to define ECS and Lindy and their differences, I think you will run into trouble. Because there are no clear boundaries, and you will run into exceptions and different opinions whenever you try to define any feature.

"Lindy is eight count, ECS is six count!"
"Yeah, but you do a lot of six count in Lindy, an you can do eight count in ECS!"
And so on.

But that doesn't mean they are not two different styles, because even they cannot be uniquely defined and clearly separated, I think you will find plenty dance examples that can be sorted into either of the categories.

 

[Flat Shoes]

Do you know the reasons for this development? And do you know why the european variant of Rock n´roll was named Boogie Woogie? And do you know why East coast swing trades in Europe as Jive, and in France as Be-Bop? And... And.... And (sorry)

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

I'd call this Lindy, although the style is not very typical. It looks like they're trying to imitate Dean Collins from the movies. See for example this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Vi7wtFMw8

 

[GGinrhinestones]

My understanding is that ECS (and jive) developed out of Lindy back in the 1940s/1950s. ECS was an AM effort to "simplify" Lindy for audiences that weren't quite down with the kicks, throws, tricks, or basically "high energy" that was (and still is) popular with Lindy. While they are very similar, the shoes a follow wears help to put things into perspective: dancing ECS, I'm in 3-inch open-toed latin shoes. Dancing Lindy, women are in dance sneakers or something similar, with a much lower and sturdier heel. If I tried dancing Lindy as I've seen in on YouTube recently, in my heels, I'd break an ankle.

Personally, I find ECS pretty tame compared to Lindy, or even jive. I struggle with ECS largely because it feels slowed down and blah compared to what swing "should" feel like to me.

 

[Steve Pastor]

ECS was an AM effort to "simplify" Lindy for audiences that weren't quite down with the kicks, throws, tricks, or basically "high energy" that was (and still is) popular with Lindy.

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.
You've probably also "heard" that that many or most ballrooms banded "jitterbugging".
(I've only seen one actual article in a newspaper that states this - in the "Oregonian".)

If "most" people sat down, and you couldn't do tricks in popular ballrooms, I wonder how much "high energy" stuff could have been around.

I've often wondered this, and am becoming more convinced that people see Whitey's Lindy Hoppers as a norm for "Lindy Hoppers". Recently I saw Norma Miller's book where she wrote that people saw the pros dancing rehearsed, choreographed routines at the Savoy, and mistakenly thought they were regular social dancers.

So, Murray taught simple steps to beginners, as did just about any one who wrote about it while swing was happening. And most contemporary materials I've seen pretty much try to dissuade people from learning "tricks" before they've actually learned to dance.

LA dancers who danced shag, "jitterbuggers" (when you start comparing usage of "jitterbug" vs "Lindy Hop", you will find that "Lindy Hop" was relatively rare in the 30s and 40s, based on usage in the popular media) also had a bunch of tricks that they used to win contests, and eventually end up on film, too. They were not normal dancers, either.

So, I don't know, I look at the Arthur Murray people dancing on their show, and think, if you took enough lessons from Murray teachers ...
I'm beginning to think Murray has gotten a bad rap, just because he taught beginners.
(I don't think there are any WLH original instruction materials for beginners. You had to be cream of the crop to be asked to dance with Whitey's crew, or even hang around them at the Savoy.)

 

[tangotime]

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.
You've probably also "heard" that that many or most ballrooms banded "jitterbugging".
(I've only seen one actual article in a newspaper that states this - in the "Oregonian".)


So, Murray taught simple steps to beginners, as did just about any one who wrote about it while swing was happening. And most contemporary materials I've seen pretty much try to dissuade people from learning "tricks" before they've actually learned to dance.



I'm beginning to think Murray has gotten a bad rap, just because he taught beginners.

Steve, heres some empirical evidence; in the UK in the early advent of Bop /Jitterbug, many public ballrooms did ban dancing that style. In fact, one public b/room eventually cordoned off a section just for the " boppers" . Even the public dance halls I ventured into in LA for e.g. I never saw anyone banned from dancing any form of "swing" , when appropriate music for rhythm type F/trots were played .( B/room people didnt like it ! ) .


As for beginners being "held back ", a claim still made today, the reasoning is sound.. strong foundations.

Also, A/M didnt restrict itself to beginners.. in matter of fact, most of my students in L.A. for. e.g. were Intern. style Silver and Gold levels ( my most advanced student ,was the regions 4 dance champ in the Pro/Am style with me ) . On my travels coaching in the early days, even in the unlikeleist places, one could invariably find advanced level students .

N.B. ..
theres also a certain irony here ,related to the B.R. world ignoring the "street "like dances that were then and now , common place .

Much of the material danced in Salsa for e.g. , came from the B.R. world who had originally adapted the street stuff to a more acceptable social level for their syllabi .

 

[Steve Pastor]

TT, did the people who danced "swing" or "jitterbug" do "air steps" or "aerials" routinely on the ballroom floor?
And, you are saying that the "swing" / "jitterbug" people were in the minority in ballrooms, as I have read/heard repeatedly?

 

[tangotime]

TT, did the people who danced "swing" or "jitterbug" do "air steps" or "aerials" routinely on the ballroom floor?
And, you are saying that the "swing" / "jitterbug" people were in the minority in ballrooms, as I have read/heard repeatedly?

When it first "hit" the UK, the regular B/room schools would not allow it at their socials ( they didnt play that type of music ) . The public ballrooms like Hammersmith Palais for e.g. also had floor managers ( as I recall ) "tapping" couples on the shldr , saying no bopping/jiving. Eventually, there did become single nites where it was only Bop/Jive/R and R, that came in about 52/53 . Ted Heath, who was a major band in those times, always drew packed houses .

Aerials were not normally seen, but anything else was fair game.

 

[tsb]

the terms can be interchangeable, but in my neck of the woods, i would put it this way:

people i would define as swing dancers have not learned how to do a lindy-hop "swingout" (which is a fundamental figure for people who dance lindy-hop) and for dancers, their basic or fallback step is a 6 count basic figure, while a lindy dancer's basic figure tends to be the swingout, although it's not uncommon for a lindy dancer to go into a lot of figures commonly associated with east coast swing - but they still go back to swingout moves. i can see this distinction at a nearby venue known as lindygroove (lindygroove.com). you can see swing dancers and lindy dancers there, although you don't see a lot of cross-pollinating as lindy dancers tend to dance with other lindy dancers, and within 6-8 weeks, the regulars know which category to which you belong. a friend of mine (who used to be a regular in DF, BTW) started going to lindygroove, and because he was new and an unknown quantity, everyone accepted his invitations to dance. but because he didn't know how to lead a swingout and had no inclination to learn how, the lindy follows began turning down his requests to dance. he stopped going shortly thereafter.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.

"Today, the vast majority of dancers stop dancing when real swing bands begin their swing numbers. The tempos of these pieces prove to be either too fast or too slow for enjoyable dancing." Metronome 1939 cited by DeVeaux 1989 in American Music

 

[Steve Pastor]

I see, too, that a 1978 book, "Disco Dancing" has "Disco Swing", which we would now call East Coast Swing.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Just looking at Frankie Manning's book (I'm doing a cleanup/organize thing)...

The breakaway, the dance that preceded the Lindy hop, maintained a ballroom hold while partners stepped slightly apart...
More swing in the music led to a longer lasting breach between the partners.


So, take out or lessen the swing, and you move back towards "the breakaway", but now it's called Eastern Swing, and who knows what else, and eventually "East Coast Swing". (sez me)

 

[RenOrsino]

I dance and teach both Lindy and what I call vernacular East Coast Swing.

Lindy Hop is taught with an eight count basic called a "swing out". The lindy circle oft referred to in this post is a method for getting into closed position in order to facilitate tuck turns, side by side Charleston moves, etc. Depending on the beats per minute, lindy stays at eight counts or drops to six simply because there isn't time to do anything in eight. It has evolved quite a bit from its origins, which was more of a circular Charlestonesque rock-step kick turn rock step kick turn. That old fashioned Lindy is fun, but frenetic.

East Coast swing breaks into two categories of its own, triple step East Coast and the vernacular East Coast. You might call it "street style" as I read earlier. Personally, triple step East Coast is for Ballroom Dancers. Any song slow enough to make triple step East Coast comfortable for me I'll be dancing Lindy Hop. As the BPM rise and catch up with my injuries, general out-of-shapeness and lack of experience/practice with faster Lindy Hop, I'll dance single-step East Coast.

Both East Coast Swings are taught in a broken rhythm, (6 counts when the music has 8). In East Coast the dancers face each other, usually with a two hand hold. The basic travels side to side with a rock-step backward.

A Lindy basic, the swing out, begins with the two dancers facing, lead's left hand held to follow's right. The lead rock-steps, they come together and turn into closed position, continue the turn and the lead sends the follow back out to her original position as they complete the "circle".

They aren't dissimilar, particularly since one did indeed develop from the other. I believe the order of progression goes Charleston -> Lindy -> West Coast | East Coast.

If you're really curious about the history of swing, you can find Peter Loggin's blog, Jassdancer, on blogspot. Last I heard, he's considered the foremost jazz & swing dance historian in the US (if not the world). I've taken workshop lessons from him twice, balboa and Lindy and the man definitely knows what he's talking about.

Regardless of the technical differences, in the end it's all just dancing and one of the things I love about swing is that it's all about improvisation.

Hope all that helped someone. =)