When is a spin turn not a spin turn?

[gclarke]

I do hope I am not about to ask another imponderable.

I'm wondering about about degrees of turn in spin turns.

For example, in our quickstep we learned to do a turn to get round a corner. In a subsequent week we learned a new step coming out of the turn and using the same turn, we simply didn't turn as far in order to be in the right place for the next step.

In the waltz I find when I look up the Natural Spin Turn, the degree of turn is more than we are doing at present.

Is it normal to have different versions of the same turn or would it be a different animal?

It may be that what we are being taught is over-simplistic, in that we face or back the wall to begin rather than start at an angle, but leaving that aside, I just wondered when our instructor uses the phrase 'we are going to do the same turn but this time we don't turn as much' whether that would ACTUALLY be the same turn.

 

[WorksForShoes]

You certainly want to listen to more experienced posters than me when they come along, but preliminarily, I can tell you that it is possible to underrotate or overrotate a turn. So, it could be that the book tells you that a turn properly involves 3/8 a turn, but you only need it to turn 1/4 to go around a corner, so you underrotate it.

 

[Josh]

Yes, it would actually be the same turn, and many figures allow for under- or over-rotation. A "regular" spin turn rotates 7/8. But if you're at a corner, or just for the heck of it, you can under-rotate it, typically making it a 5/8 turn instead. Or, you can over-rotate it to make it a full turn, and then follow with something like a turning lock to the right going down the LOD. Chasses, double reverse, natural turns, pretty much anything can be rotated more or less to suit your needs in a situation or your choreography. Don't get carried away though ;-)

 

[Me]

A general reply to this question and many others you have posted in the past:
You need to lock the videos and books away. Practice what you have learned from your instructor. Work those turns with your partner. Forget the right and the wrong. At this point you are trying to learn how to rotate your body. Slow down and give yourself time to be a beginner - Enjoy the full license you have to make mistakes.

Re: Turning
Now that you have put away your books, just know that a prescribed degree of turn will be found in syllabus figures for ballroom standardization purposes only. When you are dancing in a social situation, each lead will have his own way of dancing, and rarely will all leads in a room use the same degree of rotation, even if they all have the same instructor. (Your dance classes have been social dance, correct? Your questions about foxtrot were about social fox.)

 

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. It all gets clearer

You need to lock the videos and books away.

Sorry Me but I actually LIKE delving into the books and videos. It doesn't confuse me in a way that actually affects what we are doing. I can quite happily seperate that or for that matter things that I learn here, from the class stuff. And it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a quest to understand more.

I tend to lock little bits away for future recall and I found stuff from the books videos and this forum very useful. It is sometimes stuff I can't use yet but that's no big deal. What is worse though, is feeling I've lost the plot with something and not having an answer.

I guess I just like to learn with my head and well as my feet

 

[nucat78]

We tend to under-rotate much more frequently than over-rotate. The logic behind that is that it's much easier to correct an under-rotation on the next step(s) than an over-rotation. Your mileage may vary...

 

[Me]

...It doesn't confuse me in a way that actually affects what we are doing. I can quite happily seperate that or for that matter things that I learn here, from the class stuff. And it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a quest to understand more.

And here is where I disagree with you 100%.

Please, go back and read your posts. Oftentimes when you post technical questions they are so vaguely worded that readers either cannot understand what you are asking or have such completely different interpretations they argue. When readers ask you for clarity oftentimes you say you don't know, even if it is a question as basic as, "What foot are you on." I admit I've started avoiding many of your boards because in the past they have devolved into open forums for chest beaters to throw books at each other.

Again, I believe you need to leave the books alone, as many others have advised as well.

 

[fascination]

well.... certainly that is one way to view the scenario...but frankly, I disagree ME...the forum serves many purposes for people with varying personalities....many folks read through similar material and have questions like gclarke's...we all benefit from newcomer questions..it helps other newcomers and it even helps veterans to be able to articulate their own perspective on whatever the subject is at hand ...while the questions may be incoherent or muddy such that one may have trouble approching answering it doesn't mean that the quest or this member's process of learning needs to be criticized...admittedly, it is not the process I would choose, BUT, blessedly, we are all different...and our resident "chest beaters" are also a valuable asset (lol, MOST of the time)...it's all good...ask away G...and certainly it is fair for people to ignore any posts that give them a headache

 

[Me]

I advised her to avoid the books at her stage of learning. She disagreed because she said they don't confuse her. I responded by citing her history of posts which clearly illustrate her lack of understanding at this stage of learning.

I did not mean to imply that she should not come to the DF with questions. I am sorry if it came off that way.

HOWEVER, my advice that she abandon the books stands. To ask about degrees of turn and pour over manuals and videos when you are having your first lessons in basic social foxtrot is a recipe for disaster!

 

[fascination]

I do not disagree with that aspect of your post nor am I intending to reprimand...anything else I might say would simply be a re-statement of what I have already said....and your view is legitimate IMO

 

[gclarke]

To ask about degrees of turn and pour over manuals and videos when you are having your first lessons in basic social foxtrot is a recipe for disaster!

That's a little unfair Me. Whilst we may have only just started social foxtrot we have been doing the other dances for a while now. Whilst still beginners we are actually being given steps that involve turns whisks chasses weaves swivels etc. in a total of 7 dances, now 8 with the foxtrot.

Opinions have been voiced that it is too much too soon and I'm not going to criticise my instructor - I think he's great - but I have a personal need to try and understand what we are learning, something I can't do in class and can't do at a private lesson for reasons I won't bore everyone by repeating.

I know my methods are at variance with others but while people have been kind enough to try and answer, I am greatful for anything that helps.

I hope as my understanding grows, my questions will get a little clearer.

As for the books and videos - that's just me. I have a house full on just about anything that has caught my interest.

:friend:

 

[VTDancer]

Following 1,2,3 of a Waltz Natural Turn
Normal Spin Turn: 1/2 Turn + 3/8 Turn = 7/8 Turn (finish backing DC as man)
Underturned Natural Spin Turn: 3/8 Turn + 1/4 Turn = 5/8 Turn (finish backing DC ALOD as man)

 

[VTDancer]

Overturned Spin Turn: 1/2 Turn + 1/2 Turn = 1 whole turn (finish backing LOD as man)
UnderUnderturned Spin Turn: 1/8 Turn + 1/4 Turn = 3/8 Turn ( at a corner finish backing DC ALOD on new LOD as man)

Not as sure about these amounts of turn as the Normal and Under.

(In my opinion, easy access to information is in the best spirit of what the Interent is all about.)

 

[soshedances]

It is definitely possible to under or over-rotate figures such as Spin Turn, and its buddy, Closed Impetus. Honestly, every leader I've ever danced with turns them a different degree. There are a lot of variables that seem to affect this: the dance we're doing, speed of the music, traffic in front of us, pattern before the spin turn, pattern he wants to do after the spin turn, it varies.

In a social situation, I try not to analyze it too much, just go where the leader wants me to. If it becomes part of a comp routine, then I'm more inclined to worry about how much it rotates because I want to make sure the next figure comes out on the right alignment.

 

[soshedances]

(In my opinion, easy access to information is in the best spirit of what the Interent is all about.)

Definitely agree with that. Where else can you ask the opinions of pros, judges, competitors, and social dancers of all different ages, backgrounds, and locations?

Everyone has their own style of learning...use whatever works for you and never stop asking questions!