When is a spin turn not a spin turn?

[cantskiforlife]

I have to say that I agree with ME, Fascination, and everyone else on here. There is a lot of good that comes out of reading the books, but it can also lead to disaster if the concepts are not formed correctly.

All education is hirearchical. This means to learn efficiently and with few errors, the underlying technique must be taught first. Unfortunately, ballroom dancing is rarely taught in this manner. Afterall, most beginners want to dance and would run away if they were told that they will start learning how to dance with a partner after their first 40+ lessons.

With that said, The books and videos begin teaching at a 6th grade level. They do not give you the primary education (Nursery - 5th) that you will eventually need to improve your dancing. I recommend using them in conjunction with a teacher who can help explain the primary concepts. DF'ers can be extroadinarly helpful as well, but since we do not know you personally, and do not know what concepts you currently grasp, we are at best, guessing at what is the best response to your questions.

I relied heavily on the books when I first started (5-6 hours a day learning the figures in the books). Without actually understanding the technique behind movement, I was left playing a gave of twister in which I traveled around the sides of my room. I had no understanding of where my chest or hips were supposed to be in relation to my feet or how I was supposed to move my weight from my left foot to my right foot. And worse yet, I had to figure out a way to move my partner from one side to the other and she kept getting in my way! Cough Cough <-- I wonder whose fault that was.... MINE!

Even when I saw other dancers performing these moves and thought I understood what they were supposed to look like, I was wrong. It wasn't until I saw my coaches perform these moves over and over again that I began to understand how they were supposed to look. Even then, it took me a long time to dance them properly (I still don't).

My point is that books and videos are wonderful resources if used properly. But if you take everything in them for granted and do not question how and why your body moved from point A to point B, they can lead to extraordinarily bad habbits.

I suggest that you continue using the books and videos, however it is more important to play with every concept you learn so that you can hone your tecnique. Knowing that you need to move from point A to B is one thing, knowing how to move from point A to point B is entirely different.

Since you are obviously interested in technique, perhaps you can develop a personalized 6 month plan with your instructor covering the basic techniuqes of dance.

I look forward to more posts.

 

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. I will certainly continue my quest for improvement.

Cantskiforlife, I fully appreciate everything you say and if I thought my husband had the same interest I do, it would be a tough call between doing what we are doing, which is a pleasant social evening out, and looking for something more in depth.

Dave and I were discussing it a couple of nights ago, his question being exactly where did I want to go with the dancing. Whilst I started knowing I would enjoy it and got hooked, he started not knowing but is surprised to find he enjoys it more than he thought he would.

However, it has to be said that I like to dance and he likes to fish, if you get my drift.

At this point, I don't know to what extent I want to take it, certainly not to compete, although maybe Bronze, and later Silver, as I like the sense of achievement. Dave may well not want to be that involved and I'm not sure how far I can take it on my own.

I'm pinning my hopes on getting into the next class as soon as we can. At present there are only 2 or 3 couples in that class so there is way more time to ask questions and get a little more individual attention.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[cornutt]

I can't say "I disagree with Me" because in writing, well, it looks a bit schizoid. :mrgreen:

 

[Angel HI]

I have just been reading...OK...lurking in the background too chicken to come out. I think Cantski's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=552443&postcount=31 said extremely nicely what Me was trying to say, and others have posted. Basically, that it does appear through many of your posts, that you are being shown and laboring over things that are way too early in your education, and though being exposed to, and even trying, some of these things will be fun, they are toys that should be played with, then put away for a day when they will make more sense...that laboring over them, especially as technically as some books and videos portary them, though interesting to study (you seem to be a studier), their full understanding, appreciation, and perfection are unattainable at your current level. This isn't meant to be condescending; we all were/are there at some point...and often, continuously.

Secondly, simply stated, that there is as much fun to be had learning the basics, and the "feelings" of those techniques, and how they make all of the other things more understandable/attainable as time allows. Books and vids are great...well, some, but should always be used in conjunction with personal instruction (MM's post here http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=551910&postcount=16 is great). However, I must say, certainly not being critical of your pro, as a coach, I do not believe that I would not be teaching these things to 'classes' at a beginners' level. The posters here are not anti-book/vid, we just wish to urge you to/through the most benficial/progressive course of study.

Lastly, re your quest of the spin turn... I am surprised that everyone here, though correct, went in the direction of amounts of rotation, and precedes and follows. I believe the answer to be simple, and having nothing to do with under/over turns, etc. Ironically enough, it is an...OK, don't have my head, by-the-book answer. Coaching over the years, I have found this to be the biggest error when dancing the spin turn; the man not taking a forward step (heel-toe) before attempting to spin. Consequently, the lady doesn't step back (left foot) prior to accepting the movement. Most persons, including pros (sorry guys), do some sort of turning rock, and then try to attain the spin from the topline. IMHO, when is a spin turn not a spin turn....when it is danced w/o the proper step/movement, thus making it a turning rock.

Dance is not an equity of movement and method. I always say, 30% technique and 80% feeling (and, that is not a typo). Keep reading, but put it in perspective. Yet, most of all, as Me began and others have said, give yourself a mental holiday, and just keep dancing.

 

[gclarke]

OK Guys - I hear what you're saying.

It's kind of hard for a leopard to change it's spots though. When something gets me hooked I get rather immersed.

I learned to swim at almost 50 having been so petrified of water that even a shower made me panic if the water went in my face. With the swimming, I got hooked there also. A similar thing, not getting what I wanted from my local group lessons. I was lucky there in that a) it only affected me as opposed to us as a couple, and b) I was able to find specilaised tution that suited me. I went on to gain my teaching and life-guarding qualifications, and a year ago took my Open Water diving qualification.

My brain goes at 90 miles an hour constantly. I have spent some time and effort learning to switch off and relax but basically I am not happy unless I'm doing something. If I wasn't thinking about dancing it would be something else.

Don't get me wrong - it must sound like dancing is the ONLY thing I think about. It isn't - I have many other interests, some of which I get just as involved in - and believe it or not, when I post here I am in turn 'switching off' from other things I'm doing.

So I do hear and take on board what you're saying, but I'm not quite ready to 'slow down' just yet. I don't want to spend the next year pottering along just adding new steps. Quite how I'm going to change things I don't know yet, if indeed I can, bearing in mind what my husband may want to do. He learned to dive with me and is learning to dance but I don't expect him to necessarily have my enthusiasm for these things.

In the meantime, I want to at least be able to name the routines we have and jot them down on paper to jog my memory. Yes I will ask whenever a new step is added from now on as Gorme suggested, but early on I was too involved in trying to keep up to even think about that.

On a final note, my waltz is now down on paper, an achievement in itself, and again, many thanks to all those who took time to help me 'name those steps'.

I will save the next one for another time and switch off for a while.

 

[fascination]

sorry dan....that particular clip has nothing to do with spin turns

 

[samina]

All education is hirearchical.

FWIW, all education is not hierarchical. That is just a paradigm perhaps consistent with your personality type. There is also spherical learning. While a hierarchical approach is linear, spherical learning is not.

Some people absorb learning through focused method, others absorb in bits from many directions & levels at once and tend to repeat in circuitous loops, and others use a combination of approaches. Some people have a very strong self-correcting "inner teacher" that makes them exceptional independent learners and others do better with formal instruction.

There is simply no one correct black & white approach.I think gay should honor her way of learning and continue with her enjoyment of immersing herself into the complexities of the figures. I have a feeling that when the time is right to shift gears, she'll know. Learning goes in phases for everyone...

 

[cantskiforlife]

FWIW, all education is not hierarchical. That is just a paradigm perhaps consistent with your personality type. There is also spherical learning. While a hierarchical approach is linear, spherical learning is not.

So a note of clarification. I meant to say Knowledge is Hirearchical. Unfortunately education is rarely this way.

When you mention spherical learning, I assume that you mean leanring a concept here, learning a concept there, and over time merging them togehter to better understand the concepts.

Sperical learning is what humans do naturally because the path to knowledge is rarely understood well enough to teach it step-by-step.

It is of vast benefit to teach in a hirearchical manner as you are able to build concept upon concept. This is not necessarily a linear relationship as you can have many concepts that come together to form a tree or web-like structure. In all cases, the knowledge is still hirearchical.

In mathematics, you cannot understant multiplication without understanding addition. You cannot understand additon without understanding numbers. You cannot understand numbers without understanding what a single entity is and how one object can differ and is different from another.

If we expand this example to algebra, where you need to know multiplication, addition, subtraction, etc... to fully understand it. We, we see an interesting thing occur.

You may be able to learn about division before you learn about subtraction and multiplication, and you may be able to learn concepts of algebra without knowing all four of these lower-level concepts, but it still holds that you must understand the core concepts such as numbers and entities before you can understand algebra.

In dance, it doesn't really matter if you learn a promenade or natural or reverse turn first. You need to understand the concept of movement from foot A to foot B first.

Now, with your knowledge of walking, you can definitely dance any of these three steps at the start, but you cannot clearly understand them until you learn how to move from foot A to foot B with all of the technique associated with it.



Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.

 

[jwlinson]

I can't say "I disagree with Me" because in writing, well, it looks a bit schizoid. :mrgreen:

It's perfectly natural to argue with oneself.

No it isn't.
Yes it is.

 

[samina]

So a note of clarification. I meant to say Knowledge is Hirearchical. Unfortunately education is rarely this way...

i think we have a different understanding of the various ways that one can acquire knowledge. but that's okay.

Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.

this may be right for some, not right for others... i just don't think one can universalize this. well, one *can*... i just don't think it's an accurate statement to do so.

dancing fewer steps may create a limited context where certain technique can be learned, but dancing more steps can create the context for experiencing the flow of natural forces in other ways, to feel the logic & vitality of movement flowing through one's body that only "more" can give and not less.

it's all good...

 

[gclarke]

Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.

Now for me, that would work just fine, and I would be quite happy to do exactly that. I know I've said it before but a lot of my frustration comes from a feeling of step-learning rather than dancing.

I suppose my problems start with the fact that I've made a decision to stay where we are for the moment despite having so many steps and not enough basic skills, whilst at the same time, I'm balking at that decision and trying to add to my knowledge.

That said, knowing me, no matter what was happening in class, I would still want more.

Edit: I should have added that whilst that would suit me, it would probabaly have the vast majority of the class not coming back the following week. As you said - "if the goal is...." and I think that's they key.

 

[Josh]

I think the more important question has now become,

"When is a thread about a spin turn not a thread about a spin turn?" ;-)

 

[gclarke]

"When is a thread about a spin turn not a thread about a spin turn?" ;-)

Oops - I'll get off my soapbox and try not to be so defensive

 

[cantskiforlife]

Interestingly enough, last night, I decided to play a bit more with the spin turn (and natural turning figures in general) as it has been bothering me for a while. I could not figure out what was annoying me and kept blaming the disconnect between my partner's body and mine. Particualrly, the very first step (that is the 4th step if you are including 1-3 of the natural turn) ... where the guy steps backward ... has always annoyed me. I always felt that my body and foot position were blocking any momentum and progression.

So last night I recalled (with the help of a wonderful friend) that there is this thing called sway. I can hear you all laughing now (some of you hitting your heads). Well, it was just the reminder I needed. I can now feel my initial momentum continue through the entire spin turn and into the next step (assume 4-6 reverse turn for now). And it feels goooooooood!

This is a case where I have to unlearn years of bad habbits because I started off reading the books and learning the names and foot placements for all bronze and silver steps in 3 of the 4 styles (not latin) instead of learning the basic concepts behind each movement.

From a technical - long-term growht standpoint, I would rather see individual concepts taught and then brought together to form a spin turn, a natural turn, pivots, etc...).

Of course from the social, I don't care if I fall or how I look, I want to have fun running around the floor perspective, this is the wrong way to teach as you would loose clients before the first lesson ended.

So I pose a question to all..... What do you think is the best way to go about educating ballroom dancers?


Oh - gclarke, have you thought about taking privates without your husband? Since you seem more passionate about it than he is, the two of you could attend group classes together and then you could take privates on teh side while he (to steal your term) goes fishing.

 

[gclarke]

So last night I recalled (with the help of a wonderful friend) that there is this thing called sway. I can hear you all laughing now (some of you hitting your heads). Well, it was just the reminder I needed. I can now feel my initial momentum continue through the entire spin turn and into the next step (assume 4-6 reverse turn for now). And it feels goooooooood!

Lol that reminded me of what Dave and I went through when we'd had 3 weeks of not being able to get it even half way right. Of course, I didn't have the luxury of a word like 'sway' in my vocab.

Oh - gclarke, have you thought about taking privates without your husband? Since you seem more passionate about it than he is, the two of you could attend group classes together and then you could take privates on teh side while he (to steal your term) goes fishing.

Not sure about that. The idea appeals but does that bring other problems? For example, if it were to widen the gap between us, would I be tempted into things like backleading? I'm hoping to find a dance holiday where we can learn more together.