Where's the BEEF?? or is it LEAD??

[Mario7]

Nuevo has beautiful flowing movements but can only be danced by people who have a strong connection..

First of all, I'm not trying to prove anything. I find the posts in this thread very edifying...I might learn something. However, I must ask what I must ask and I don't do this as a belligerent although I hate to see Tango communities morphing over into nuevo.
Anyway, this line in the above post, stopped me cold. Perhaps, the title
of this thread should be; "Where's the Connection?"...or are we using Nuevo Speak? What Connection? Maybe if I can 'get' this, I can get Nuevo. I mean, I've had open hold classes where the firmness of the frame was stressed..is this what you mean?..or perhaps the fact that some Nuevo dancers go to a (pseudo) upright close embrace for a moment now and then before the next flying wedgy ?? Where is the 'strong connection'...? please.

 

[Peaches]

First of all, I'm not trying to prove anything. I find the posts in this thread very edifying...I might learn something. However, I must ask what I must ask and I don't do this as a belligerent although I hate to see Tango communities morphing over into nuevo.
Anyway, this line in the above post, stopped me cold. Perhaps, the title
of this thread should be; "Where's the Connection?"...or are we using Nuevo Speak? What Connection? Maybe if I can 'get' this, I can get Nuevo. I mean, I've had open hold classes where the firmness of the frame was stressed..is this what you mean?..or perhaps the fact that some Nuevo dancers go to a (pseudo) upright close embrace for a moment now and then before the next flying wedgy ?? Where is the 'strong connection'...? please.

Well, I'd never think of the open embrace as "firm." To me it's one of the softest, most comfortable, most fluid embraces possible.

Despite that, or because of that, it takes a lot of awareness to dance open/nuevo. Awareness of your own body and where you are being placed, awareness of your partner's body and how he's moving it in relation to other parts of his body and in relation to you, awareness of the music and how things are being fit to the music, awareness of your balance. All of that feeds into connection. I find the lead very very easy to feel in close embrace--it's right there, no missing it. In comparison to nuevo, it's about as subtle as a neon sign. But with nuevo, I find the options to be so unlimited, and the connection so subtle and varied, I have got to be completely and utterly tuned in to my partner. THAT gives me my connection.

If I'm not tuned in to him I can't feel his weight changes as easily (particularly stationary), I'm likely to miss a change of alignment, I'm likely to not have the proper relaxation in my leg and balance over my standing foot. But when I do have that connection...and often it's very intense, very direct eye contact...it's amazing. It's a state of almost hyper-awareness. Of me, of him, of the music, of the room, everything. Very.deep.connection.

 

[bordertangoman]

?? Where is the 'strong connection'...? please.

here: as an example; Jenny & Ricardo's dancing doesnt get worse or better because the embrace fluctuates; the connection begins from the moment their steps begin and their attention is with the other person. You can be physically against someone and not connect and you can catch someone's eye across a crowded room and connect.

Connection doesnt happen because you want it to; it happens because you may be open to let it happen. It might not happen in the first dance of your tanda, it might happen with one woman in a whole evenings dancing.

Like any two people can f*** but to make love requires something that you cannot force to happen.

 

[JohnEm]

Well, I'd never think of the open embrace as "firm." To me it's one of the softest, most comfortable, most fluid embraces possible.

. . . . I find the options to be so unlimited, and the connection so subtle and varied, I have got to be completely and utterly tuned in to my partner. THAT gives me my connection.

If I'm not tuned in to him I can't feel his weight changes as easily (particularly stationary), I'm likely to miss a change of alignment, I'm likely to not have the proper relaxation in my leg and balance over my standing foot. But when I do have that connection...and often it's very intense, very direct eye contact...it's amazing. It's a state of almost hyper-awareness. Of me, of him, of the music, of the room, everything. Very.deep.connection.

Peaches, I'm impressed - really! You are a rare partner indeed. That takes huge concentration and ability, and a very good clear and consistent lead. It is a connection of sorts but it's a more technical one though obviously all absorbing. But it is not the connection of the embrace.

I too have learned nuevo-style moves and leads but as in most people's experience (I think) it did require frame and arm leads. In most neuvo on You-tube you can see all sorts of arm leads, paddling and the like. I can't recall seeing the connection you indicate. In the end I rejected Nuevo/Fantasia/Modern as not providing the wonderful connection and satisfying challenge that the embrace does. Less is more.

 

[Peaches]

Peaches, I'm impressed - really! You are a rare partner indeed. That takes huge concentration and ability, and a very good clear and consistent lead. It is a connection of sorts but it's a more technical one though obviously all absorbing. But it is not the connection of the embrace.

I too have learned nuevo-style moves and leads but as in most people's experience (I think) it did require frame and arm leads. In most neuvo on You-tube you can see all sorts of arm leads, paddling and the like. I can't recall seeing the connection you indicate. In the end I rejected Nuevo/Fantasia/Modern as not providing the wonderful connection and satisfying challenge that the embrace does. Less is more.

Well, no, it's not the intense physical connection that I find with close embrace or apilado. There's no sense of melting, or snuggling, into my partner. I lose the wonderful feeling (well, assuming our heights match) of tucking my forehead against his chin. Yes, that is all lost.

And I won't say that arm leads have no place in nuevo. Of course they do. But they are not, IMO and IME, forceful arm leads. Yes, of course, if my partner is going to turn me out 90 degrees to him, or place me side-to-side with him, or such like that, it will require his arms. What I can't tell you is what it feels like...because I don't know that I've ever really felt anything directly.* I am where I need to be, don't ask me how I got there. He moves into my space or something, or has me aligned in a certain way and then re-aligns himself somehow. I really couldn't tell you. But, yes, it involves the arms. T'is another way of getting dissociation.

I don't know what you mean by paddling.

I don't know that you could see the connection I'm talking about. It's more of a feeling inside me, so I would imagine that for other people it's very much a feeling inside them, as well. By the same token, close embrace doesn't necessarily look like much either...it's how it feels between the partners. That's the real connection. You can stand all close and have your arms around someone and dance in close embrace...and still not feel a connection. It's not about the embrace. It's not about the distance. It's not about the physical contact. It's the CONNECTION. And that doesn't depend one iota on the style.

ETA: I also have no idea what you mean about it being a more technical connection. Yes, I have to use technique. But that is true regardless of what style is being danced. If my technique isn't good it can be harder to cover flaws, and it can make the dancing exponentially harder, and it absolutely takes away from that real connection. The point isn't the technique; the point is that having good technique allows me to be more free, allows me to have that connection. And, part of that is feeling and being aware of my own body. That's far from technical...I find it actually rather sensual.


*Major caveat: when done well. If I'm dancing with a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, I find everything is just uncomfortable. Close embrace, open, it doesn't matter. It ranges from discomfort to outright pain.

 

[JohnEm]

here: as an example; Jenny & Ricardo's dancing doesnt get worse or better because the embrace fluctuates; the connection begins from the moment their steps begin and their attention is with the other person. You can be physically against someone and not connect and you can catch someone's eye across a crowded room and connect.

Oh Jenni & Ricardo! Of course they have a wonderful connection, emotional I guess, and professional. In open hold Jenni is almost always watching Ricardo's chest and maintining the relationship until Ricardo changes that relationship with arm leads. Then the eye contact is temporarily lost.

Are they good? Most definitely! And very skillful. But they are partners, have practised and danced countless hours together and know what the other can and will do on a sub-conscious level. So their connection is not the same as an occasional partner on the dance floor.

Theirs is not a realistic comparison.
And of course, that's not what I aspire to either.

 

[dchester]

Well, I'd never think of the open embrace as "firm." To me it's one of the softest, most comfortable, most fluid embraces possible.

I've always thought of open embrace as an oxymoron. Forgive the hijack, but that's what popped into my mind.

 

[JohnEm]

Well, no, it's not the intense physical connection that I find with close embrace or apilado. There's no sense of melting, or snuggling, into my partner. I lose the wonderful feeling (well, assuming our heights match) of tucking my forehead against his chin. Yes, that is all lost.

And I won't say that arm leads have no place in nuevo. . . . He moves into my space or something, or has me aligned in a certain way and then re-aligns himself somehow. I really couldn't tell you. But, yes, it involves the arms. T'is another way of getting dissociation.

I don't know what you mean by paddling.

Thanks Peaches, that's quite enlightening!
Still think you're a rare partner!

As for paddling - I suppose that's a quite dismissive description from a milonguero about left arm leads (of your right) especially then the lead hinges his arm at the shoulder. It's something I'm perhaps over-conscious not to do? But then I now lead from the chest and hardly ever an arm lead to be seen. Even in open hold I was taught not to use/paddle my arms - relying on body movement and the lady's eye contact to follow. That's exactly why I'm impressed!

 

[Peaches]

Oh Jenni & Ricardo! Of course they have a wonderful connection,
emotional I guess, and professional. In open hold Jenni is almost always watching Ricardos chest and maintining the relationship until Ricardo changes that relationship with arm leads. Then the eye contact is temporarily lost.

Are they good? Most definitely! And very skillful. But they are partners, have practised and danced countless hours together and know what the other can and will do on a sub-conscious level. So their connection is not the same as an occasional partner on the dance floor.

Theirs is not a realistic comparison.
And of course, that's not what I aspire too either.

And just what would you consider as a realistic comparison? You won't take the example of a well-known couple. Would you take the example of people having experienced that with a random partner on a social floor? Because I have experience that. It is real. It is possible.

 

[Peaches]

I've always thought of open embrace as an oxymoron. Forgive the hijack, but that's what popped into my mind.

Not arguing.

 

[JohnEm]

And just what would you consider as a realistic comparison? You won't take the example of a well-known couple. Would you take the example of people having experienced that with a random partner on a social floor? Because I have experience that. It is real. It is possible.

I almost fear now continuing this conversation.

I'm not disputing Jenny and Ricardo's connection nor that of many other established couples on the semi-professional teaching circuit.

Nor am I disputing the connection you feel born out of your intense concentration in the moment. Crikey, I respect it.

But most of the people I come across in Nuevo, or whatever you want to call it, aren't like that. Too much floor/foot watching, concentration on the moves rather than their partner and the music. In Tango it's each and everyone of us to their own.

Nor do most have any idea of their relationship to, and co-existence with, the rest of the people on the floor . . . . . . . . which brings us back to Mario's original post I guess.

 

[bordertangoman]

Oh

...Are they good? Most definitely! And very skillful.

And of course, that's not what I aspire to either.

but skilfulness and experience help create the confidence. I've danced with Ines Mousavi and Mila and they were beautiful to dance with I cant say how they felt about the connection we had but wherever I went they went with me.....

and lots of other dancers, especially Russian ladies.

 

[tangonuevo]

... All of that feeds into connection. I find the lead very very easy to feel in close embrace--it's right there, no missing it. In comparison to nuevo, it's about as subtle as a neon sign. But with nuevo, I find the options to be so unlimited, and the connection so subtle and varied, I have got to be completely and utterly tuned in to my partner. THAT gives me my connection....
Very.deep.connection.

Everything she said!!

I think one difficulty is that the skill level required to dance nuevo in a flowing and highly connected manner is very high.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
But most of the people I come across in Nuevo, or whatever you want to call it, aren't like that. Too much floor/foot watching, concentration on the moves rather than their partner and the music. In Tango it's each and everyone of us to their own.

Nor do most have any idea of their relationship to, and co-existence with, the rest of the people on the floor . . . . . . . . which brings us back to Mario's original post I guess.

I would expect no less from those who haven't mastered the dance. Steps, even tricky ones, okay. But the dance? It doesn't sound like it.

 

[Peaches]

I almost fear now continuing this conversation.

I'm not disputing Jenny and Ricardo's connection nor that of many other established couples on the semi-professional teaching circuit.

Nor am I disputing the connection you feel born out of your intense concentration in the moment. Crikey, I respect it.

But most of the people I come across in Nuevo, or whatever you want to call it, aren't like that. Too much floor/foot watching, concentration on the moves rather than their partner and the music. In Tango it's each and everyone of us to their own.

Nor do most have any idea of their relationship to, and co-existence with, the rest of the people on the floor . . . . . . . . which brings us back to Mario's original post I guess.

Seems I misinterpreted your post, then.

Oh, agreed. There's too much focus on moves...regardless of the style.

Looking at the floor is something that is always brought up. I don't think, though, it's what it seems like at first glance.