who's really qualified to teach

[Ampster]

There are pro's and cons to this question. On the one hand, there is the certification road, that means, for all intents and purposes that you did your due diligence in getting the accreditation. That means you have the papers to teach. Does that mean you actually can? NO.

How many of you have had teachers across your years at school who can't teach? All of them had papers... ALL. How many of you had been to a b/r studio. Most of them were certified. How many could actually teach? That's debatable.

In AT, we don't have accreditations. But, then again, what's the ration of the good teachers to the bad ones with papers. I'd say it's a wash...

So, what's the difference? What's the value add in having AT certs, if the results will be that same as what we have now? Why bother. Myself and a whole lot of my friends got to where we are now with the AT teachers we had. Some good, some bad. My B/R friends are stagnant and have dropped off the map, can't dance socially. Their teachers were all certified and recognized.

Leave AT the way it is. Let it evolve and grow and bloom as it has.

 

[Aurora]

I am very much opposed to the idea of requiring certification or valuing certification over proven teaching ability. This is not to say that I don't value teachers who have learned pedagogical techniques or received further training. What I mean is that, in my experience, certification means very little in terms of actual teaching ability unless it is highly regulated--and the social dancing world is not made for high amounts of regulation. (I have also seen a local studio create teachers with different levels of certification and teaching syllabi--and the general consensus from the rest of the community is that these teachers are awful and their students are, for the most part, terrible social dancers. But they have created a great image for suckers who want to throw their money to "certified" teachers...)

I am also wary of judging a teacher mainly on his/her students. People come to tango with a hugely varied dance background and natural ability to learn movement. Some people dance well without having been taught a particular skill from their teacher--I came to AT with a solid dance background, and I wouldn't credit my AT teachers with giving me the necessary balance, musicality, and so on that have helped me become a fairly good dancer. Likewise, I have seen good teachers struggle with students who have very little body awareness or who just don't listen.

I have found that a group class can offer great insight into a teacher's ability to teach. I have certain criteria for such classes: the teacher's ability to break movements into more basic parts and teach them in a building-block way so that, by the end of class, you can do that movement with ease; the ability to watch students and give them small corrections or ideas to play with that help the students progress toward their goal; and the ability to rephrase instructions or corrections if the first approach doesn't work. I think that taking a group class with an eye toward the instructor's approach is a worthwhile investment when trying to decide whether to continue learning from that instructor.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Here would be a convenient place for a list of bad teachers but for some reason as soon as you say something bad about a teacher, a mod comes.

That's completely reasonable.

Sorry, but it's not at all appropriate to criticize someone on a public forum. Firstly, because the person criticized doesn't have right-of-reply and is unlikely to be a forum member anyway.

And secondly, bear in mind that, conceivably, such criticism could result in legal action against the forum owners.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I agree. In order to teach well, one has to have a good eye and know how to make adjustments where needed.

Actually, I think the primary skill involved in teaching is communication.

If you can't communicate concepts clearly and effectively, how can you call yourself a teacher?

 

[Captain Jep]

Shouldnt you be out dancing DB - or should I say, declaring war on the "Hoggers" ?

 

[dchester]

Sorry, but it's not at all appropriate to criticize someone on a public forum. Firstly, because the person criticized doesn't have right-of-reply and is unlikely to be a forum member anyway.

And secondly, bear in mind that, conceivably, such criticism could result in legal action against the forum owners.

I agree with most things you post, but not on this one. I guess I've never understood why people are so much more worried about the "unfairness" of criticism, as opposed to the unfairness of wasting time and money on a bad class.

Also, if the website is located in the US, there's little to worry about legal action. There's a myriad of websites where people review (or post their opinions about) all sorts of things, without getting sued.

 

[barrefly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jantango
I agree. In order to teach well, one has to have a good eye and know how to make adjustments where needed.

Actually, I think the primary skill involved in teaching is communication.

If you can't communicate concepts clearly and effectively, how can you call yourself a teacher?

Actually, you need both skill/skill recognition and the ability to teach such skill to the student via effective communication. I think this is what DB was implying.
Effective communication is what most defines the difference between a good dance teacher and a dancer that teaches.

 

[barrefly]

Originally Posted by Dave Bailey
Sorry, but it's not at all appropriate to criticize someone on a public forum. Firstly, because the person criticized doesn't have right-of-reply and is unlikely to be a forum member anyway.

And secondly, bear in mind that, conceivably, such criticism could result in legal action against the forum owners.

DB has a point, though, I don't think any criticism may result in legal action against a forum/member. Slander/false information that may cause damage, etc (esp. if it's a professional board)...can possibly have legal backlash to the member as well as the forum, for not properly moderating.
Some boards have strick rules on this issue.
Posting a list of "bad" teachers would not be wise idea, since it may cause damage to an individual/group of individuals.
The "bad" teachers just may file a class action against the forum owner.
However,...a list of teachers you personally and those that may agree with you, would not recommend,...should be ok. (...but not backed by the board owner as board owner, representing the opinions of it's members)

 

[tangotime]

You're partly correct: they're no guarantee but they do make it far more likely someone is an at least acceptable teacher.

Certification is an obstacle to teaching, one that people who are serious about their craft will be able to overcome, and one that will keep out the dabblers or the six-class would-be-teachers referenced in earlier posts.

The downside of universal certification is that it immediately retards the evolution of the dance, but it does not halt such evolution.
The way to get the best of both worlds is, as I said, allow more than one group to certify and use more than one syllabus.

Unfortunately.. it does not always do that .

As I stated, the first level of certif. in ALL soc. is not based upon ones capabilities to teach.. ONLY book knowledge .

Many yrs ago i had a written dialogue with the late A.Moore about this very subject. I proposed that all exams should include a teaching hr by the candidate, in addition to the "book " part of exam. He agreed, but pointed out some of the impracticalities of the exercise .
I have examined hundreds of teachers over the yrs ( and students ) and their lack of understanding about basic concepts is invariably lacking .

And I would not agree that "certif " downgrades its evolution.. on the contrary.. in good Soc. , Prof. congresses and w/shops are held on a reg. basis , putting forth new ideas and variations for discussion . I would submit however, that this concept is more practical from a financial point in the UK , with the easier access to to travel in the regional areas for those that wish to attend .

And, as to syl.. each Soc has its own ( the basic foundation work is virtually the same ) and there are always dis agreements in substantive matters at the higher levels of content ( even at the lower sometimes ).

And lastly, it still does not prevent the "moonlighters " teaching in the UK.. I have one here who sells their" product " at extremely low prices ( classes only ) .. and dont even mention Salsa !!!

 

[etp777]

I've gone back and forth on this subject so many times (and sorry, I was keeping up with this thread, but have not read it all now). My general opinion is that you can't tell if a particular teacher is right ofr a particular student until you try. I know pros (sorry, yes, I'm intruding from ballroom world again ) who've only wone smaller local comps that can take any part of technique and describe it perfectly so I can understand it right off, and I also have worked with world champs that are great teachers, but for my particular way of learning, we couldn't quite come to a "meeting of the minds" and while I definitely learned stuff, was a struggle. so only person who can judge if a particular teacher is qualified to teach, in the end, is the student in question.

Yes, you can argue particular training, particular experience, etc, but in the end, the teacher has to match to the student. Without the right match there, nothing else matters.

 

[Angel HI]

Here would be a convenient place for a list of bad teachers but for some reason as soon as you say something bad about a teacher, a mod comes.

Sorry, but it's not at all appropriate to criticize someone on a public forum. Firstly, because the person criticized doesn't have right-of-reply and .... conceivably, such criticism could result in legal action against the forum owners.

As a mod, let me quickly say this. I, too, have issue w/ a policy that says it is ok to say whatever you want about a teacher if it's good, but not ok to say something negative. It's passed off as being tactful, respectful, etc., but, to me, it's plainly hypocritical.

However, having said that, DB's points are well made. But, note that the main reason why we can not do it in a public forum, save for legal things, etc. that are already public knowledge, is b/c it is an unfound matter of opinion applicable only to the poster. A teacher who might be horrid to one, might be the enlightening savior to another. As ETP posted, the decision as to whether a teacher is a bad teacher or not is relevant only to the student in question, not the teacher in question.

 

[bordertangoman]

Sorry, but it's not at all appropriate to criticize someone on a public forum. Firstly, because the person criticized doesn't have right-of-reply and is unlikely to be a forum member anyway.

And secondly, bear in mind that, conceivably, such criticism could result in legal action against the forum owners.

I agree with this. There are teachers whose workshops I havnt got a lot from but I am aware that others have enjoyed or benefited from what they have offered. So I still respect what they do even if it isnt something I would go to myself. Sometimes its down to personality, approach. Horses for courses.

 

[wooh]

And whether we like the rule or not, it is the rule here. People whine and whine about rules on forums (not just this particular rule, and not just here, but on a few that I visit), but the ones who whine the most are rarely the ones who would be willing to go and put the time and money into creating a forum of their own. And on the rare occasion that they do, they often find out that the rules that they disliked really were there for a reason, and not just to persecute them.

 

[wooh]

I often think the best teachers are not the best do-ers. You see it in sports all the time. Hitting coaches that were never in the majors or only in for a short time, as an example. I think that the best do-ers usually have a talent that makes it all a bit too easy for them. They don't know what it is that makes it possible to do the magical things they do, so they can't teach it to others.

 

[Angel HI]

I am very much opposed to the idea of requiring certification or valuing certification over proven teaching ability. This is not to say that I don't value teachers who have learned pedagogical techniques or received further training. What I mean is that, in my experience, certification means very little in terms of actual teaching ability unless it is highly regulated--and the social dancing world is not made for high amounts of regulation. (I have also seen a local studio create teachers with different levels of certification and teaching syllabi--and the general consensus from the rest of the community is that these teachers are awful and their students are, for the most part, terrible social dancers. But they have created a great image for suckers who want to throw their money to "certified" teachers...)

I am also wary of judging a teacher mainly on his/her students. People come to tango with a hugely varied dance background and natural ability to learn movement. Some people dance well without having been taught a particular skill from their teacher--I came to AT with a solid dance background, and I wouldn't credit my AT teachers with giving me the necessary balance, musicality, and so on that have helped me become a fairly good dancer. Likewise, I have seen good teachers struggle with students who have very little body awareness or who just don't listen.

I have found that a group class can offer great insight into a teacher's ability to teach. I have certain criteria for such classes: the teacher's ability to break movements into more basic parts and teach them in a building-block way so that, by the end of class, you can do that movement with ease; the ability to watch students and give them small corrections or ideas to play with that help the students progress toward their goal; and the ability to rephrase instructions or corrections if the first approach doesn't work. I think that taking a group class with an eye toward the instructor's approach is a worthwhile investment when trying to decide whether to continue learning from that instructor.

IMHO, this is one of the best posts I have read in a while. I have blued the parts that I beleive of particular note, and w/i that, highlighted the greatest points ever.

I do wish to add to this part, however, "...I came to AT with a solid dance background, and I wouldn't credit my AT teachers with giving me the necessary balance, musicality, and so on that have helped me become a fairly good dancer..." Many have coem to me, as such, and I have had to, completely in some cases, retrain that individual b/c the kinesthetics, rhythms, timings, etc. of AT are different from the muscle training/execution, and musics that they are accustomed to.